If you're of a mind to puzzle over questions like these, I highly recommend a recent essay by Clay Shirky, titled A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy. There, Shirky talks about some non-obvious aspects of group dynamics, and then shows how on-line communities either adapt to group dynamics or don't.
Without giving anything away, Perlmonks does a bunch of stuff right.
Go. Read. Ponder. There's some good stuff there that we'll get back to later.
|
---|
Replies are listed 'Best First'. | |
---|---|
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by cLive ;-) (Prior) on Jul 13, 2003 at 05:10 UTC | |
Two words. Approachable people. When I first joined (seems way back, but only a couple of years), I found the following: And it helps that there's a core of great people (they know who they are :) who always manage to answer even the harshest posts without malice, and who do their utmost to stop the (few) flame wars from getting out of control. Now if only paco would come back... cLive ;-) | [reply] |
The spinning wheels of PM quality engine
by gmax (Abbot) on Jul 13, 2003 at 10:06 UTC | |
PerlMonks works because, among other things, it promotes self improvement. By attending and partecipating in PM exchange of information, you become involved in the Perl culture. The Monastery system of peer review makes you aware of your limits as well as your strength. You become a better programmer simply staying here and playing by the rules. The peer review encourages everybody to write only (well mostly) good code, appropriate comments, sound advice. If you know that a few thousand well trained pairs of eyes are going to check waht you say, you want to make sure that your posts are of good, if not excellent quality before they go to the general scrutiny. It is like playing chess. You don't become a Grandmaster by playing to the average woodpushers. You must enter the arena and face the best players. It isn't easy, but it's the only way. So the main element for PM success is the community driven moderation system tuned for quality. _ _ _ _ (_|| | |(_|>< _| | [reply] |
(jeffa) Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by jeffa (Bishop) on Jul 13, 2003 at 16:00 UTC | |
jeffa L-LL-L--L-LL-L--L-LL-L-- -R--R-RR-R--R-RR-R--R-RR B--B--B--B--B--B--B--B-- H---H---H---H---H---H--- (the triplet paradiddle with high-hat) | [reply] |
by adrianh (Chancellor) on Jul 13, 2003 at 16:06 UTC | |
barriers to participation There's also the site design as a whole. It's not got the lowest barrier to entry in the world :-) | [reply] |
by chaoticset (Chaplain) on Jul 14, 2003 at 16:19 UTC | |
spare the group from scaleSee, this is something that's been nagging at my mind lately. Simple logic would dictate that easier distribution of information (which encompasses both sharing of resources and social interaction in one big honkin' swoop) would allow a monolithic organization to stay more monolithic, that it could communicate more effectively, that it could act more swiftly as a unit, etc. The result is otherwise, and I think the reason has to do with people not being smart enough to know the best plan. Short version, although everybody can cooperate in a way that is most effective to them as a group, they do not. You get a group that's too large, it splinters, becomes topheavy, becomes sluggish, etc., because as it encompasses more and more humans, it has a greatly expanding range of motives driving their involvement. Eventually, a small subset of them may locate common interests and remove themselves from the larger group (i.e., the small research consortium composed of a handful of researchers from some huge corporate R&D division) or if enough of the individuals have goals completely counter to the prime goal, then it's possible that their actions, due to chaotic "magnification", could crowd out the attempts on the part of the "group" to persevere. (My understanding is that this is what happened to Webvan, in a way. Statements from employees indicated that a significant portion of the employees did not want to perform at their jobs. In a world where pizza delivery is approaching perfection, not delivering something is akin to kicking the customer in the ass. Word-of-mouth coupled with a significant portion of non-functional employees could destroy a company easily, IMHO.) So it's interesting to note that a focused goal, as long as it excludes most people, is possible to achieve. Apparently being a successful community is, in part, knowing who to alienate.
----------------------- | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by Anonymous Monk on Jul 13, 2003 at 04:49 UTC | |
Three things: Nice job with the site :) | [reply] |
by Anonymous Monk on Jan 26, 2004 at 06:52 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by barrd (Canon) on Jul 13, 2003 at 13:10 UTC | |
Funny, for the first time I was compelled to look up the word community in a dictionary. Why funny? Well, I spent my informative years growing up in a New Age Commune and had never before felt drawn to really study or define what a community is. Entry "3(b): Sharing, participation, and fellowship" from the community link above I thought rather well defined my idea of not only the place I grew up in but the community I have come to admire and respect here at Perlmonks.
As dws asks "What's special about this place"?;
Update: 1 $currency =~ s/quid/buck/i if $monks_country ne 'UK'; | [reply] [d/l] [select] |
by zby (Vicar) on Jul 14, 2003 at 10:04 UTC | |
| [reply] [d/l] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by Coruscate (Sexton) on Jul 13, 2003 at 05:46 UTC | |
I'm all for saying that what keeps PerlMonks running so smoothly is so complex that it is impossible to analyze it in great detail. The most important aspect is of course the people. We have such a diverse community here and I think that makes a big difference. We also have a large number of members who are passionate about the site and its topic (that always seems to help). You can make attempts at taking PerlMonks and tearing it apart at the seams, but we have way too much going on here for anyone to understand it all. :) If anything, the title of your node should say "How does PerlMonks _not_ work?" Bet you'd get fewer answers :) If the above content is missing any vital points or you feel that any of the information is misleading, incorrect or irrelevant, please feel free to downvote the post. At the same time, please reply to this node or /msg me to inform me as to what is wrong with the post, so that I may update the node to the best of my ability. | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by Abigail-II (Bishop) on Jul 13, 2003 at 11:35 UTC | |
Abigail | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by fredopalus (Friar) on Jul 13, 2003 at 12:27 UTC | |
And besides, with a name like PerlMonks, you know it's for the more hardcore perl programmers. People go to Usenet first because they're not interested in Perl enough to try somewhere else. | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Jul 13, 2003 at 15:06 UTC | |
I think it comes down to one thing: tolorance. Or perhaps more proactively(*): an intolorance of intolorance. Perhaps coupled with the single-minded focus and swift but lightly exercised use of managerial control. Perhaps the remarkable thing is that these two things are often mutually exclusive. That they coexist here is something that requires more than my abilities to try and explain. (*)This is the first time I've used that word since a few management reports I wrote in the late 80's and early 90's Examine what is said, not who speaks.
"Efficiency is intelligent laziness." -David Dunham"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." -Richard Buckminster Fuller | [reply] |
by Anonymous Monk on Jul 13, 2003 at 21:31 UTC | |
tolorance... intolorance of intolorance. Ahh! I can't take it anymore! <pedant> </pedant> Heh, sorry ;-) | [reply] [d/l] [select] |
by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Jul 13, 2003 at 21:48 UTC | |
Dat's s'ok, I can teke it. S'all dahn to me axent yer see. I speels fonetically, but I've got an arfull axent, so it all comes aht wrong. Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry (wit) bones... Examine what is said, not who speaks.
"Efficiency is intelligent laziness." -David Dunham"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." -Richard Buckminster Fuller | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by adrianh (Chancellor) on Jul 13, 2003 at 17:01 UTC | |
For those interested in this sort of thing I'd recommend giving another of Shirky's papers Social Software and the Politics of Groups a read. Interesting stuff shows up on the Socialtext blog too. | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by naChoZ (Curate) on Jul 13, 2003 at 18:57 UTC | |
Simple things like XP. I'm not talking about XP whoring really. Just that, personally, it makes me think about the quality of my posts more, as I'm sure others do as well. Even when I'm in a pissy mood and someone's post might rub me the wrong way, I think about my post and if my mood shows, I rewrite it. Re: Non-English posts on Perlmonks, was one such node, after I read the preview it got rewritten before submission and it almost hit a 30 rep. Aside from inspiring a conscientiousness in posting, it is also a way to learn what a quality post is. Despite all the excellent documentation on how to write quality posts, I still think people need to learn by getting their feet wet and trying it out. Plus, I've yet to see the level of user participation that exists here in terms of site management, development, and maintenance. It makes me aspire to be a stronger participator as well. pmdev, Editors, they're made up of real people. Other sites almost have a dictatorship quality about it. Even to the point of disclaiming, "it's our way or the highway..." Perlmonks has a very democratic feel to it that is unparalleled.
~~ | [reply] |
by SyN/AcK (Scribe) on Jul 14, 2003 at 02:40 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by hsmyers (Canon) on Jul 13, 2003 at 14:21 UTC | |
--hsm "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by allolex (Curate) on Jul 13, 2003 at 18:40 UTC | |
Why does Perl Monks work? I think the main reason is the atmosphere at the Monastery. Even if one discounted its constant presence of experts in the various timezones necessary for getting quick answers, our cloister would still work because one monk's knowledge tends to complement another's; so many monks are willing to share what they know, whatever their individual motivations may be. I think most of us can answer your question through introspection. I just asked myself how I feel about participating in this community. Apart from some flirtations with IRC about 10 years ago, I never really had any interest in on-line forums---and this despite my desperately needing help. People tend to behave in the manner others expect them to. Here in the Monastery, the expectations are high.
-- Update 2003-07-13 20:44:33 CEST: I probably should add that I actually did read the article. I especially enjoyed the reference to "religious veneration". At least we're honest here ;) | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by johndageek (Hermit) on Jul 14, 2003 at 17:32 UTC | |
Religious , political or employment.
Groups that work need: How these pieces interact determine the longevity of the group. The goal must be a statement of general direction (e.g. improving the Perl language and expanding it's usage). Leaders must be empowered to rebuke those in the group who incite rebelion to the goal(downvoting, remove a node), and to encourage those who work toward the goal(upvote and frontpaging a node). Members must be dedicated to the cause as well as evangelizing for the group. Watchers are those who have been evangelized, or happen upon the group by chance. There must be enough freedom to discuss radical new ideas, on topic ideas, as well as some off topic thoughts. There must be a way to get feedback from those who count (leaders, members and watchers each weighted by proven responsibility to the group goal). A method of allowing a person to move between the striations in the group. (watcher, member, leader - see levels within the Perlomonks). Rites of passage must be in place to let each member know their standing in the group as well as the standing of other members. These rites are important as the personal cost of each rite validates the members dedication to the group goal. Once formed, a surviving group will be dynamic. Membership will change over time, with new members exceeding attrition. Leadership will change slowly as new people are added to the ranks of leadership roles, upper level leaders will share the position, take lesser leadership positions or step down from leadership positions as they see fit (dedication to the group goal). Changes to the core methodology of the group will also need to occur, but should only happen as they are proven to be beneficial to the goal of the group. The goal may change, but then the basis for the group has changed and the original group will have to be considered dead (even if kept alive in name). Thought was provoked, and shared. (a sense of humor helps most groups as well) -John | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by talexb (Chancellor) on Jul 14, 2003 at 16:42 UTC | |
That in a nutshell is what Perl Monks means to me. Perl Monks users are there for one another. Something A posted a long time ago is useful to B, and B writes something that C enjoyed, and C made some comment that D found useful, and A dropped by after a hiatus and read something D posted and really liked it. What a great place. --t. alexLife is short: get busy! | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by zby (Vicar) on Jul 14, 2003 at 16:11 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by karmacide (Acolyte) on Jun 05, 2004 at 03:08 UTC | |
Nevertheless, in half an hour two saints (one writes for O'Reilly!) and a monk responded with really useful feedback! No flames or rubbish, just honest to goodness consideration. That's what makes PerlMonks, a consideration and willingness to help others. It would be different (and bad) if this place were called PERL 5cr1ptk1dd135! Thanks for all your help monks! | [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by uksza (Canon) on Dec 15, 2004 at 23:21 UTC | |
I'm quite new PM, but I can say, that everything is true: Our monastery is helpful and countenance us for study, is full of friendship and partnership etc etc... But, there is something more: not flame war and patience Rare think - pearl of Perl Monks... Lukasz | [reply] |
by ysth (Canon) on Dec 16, 2004 at 00:32 UTC | |
| [reply] |
Re: Why does Perlmonks work?
by fraktalisman (Hermit) on Mar 10, 2004 at 23:51 UTC | |
A few times, like now, I take the time to browse newest nodes, best nodes etc., to read and maybe also write something without the pressure to get things done. It seems to me some people have more time to read and give answers, or there are just so many monks around now, so everyone finds time to answer some node some time. How much average time do you spend with Perlmonks? | [reply] |