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Re: Perl "CAT" response to Pumpking resignation turmoil
by salva (Canon) on Apr 26, 2021 at 18:09 UTC
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How could this be off-topic??? (note: the original post had been tagged as Off-Topic)
Matt Trout, an important member of the Perl community which huge and key contributions has been banned for life by a three-people committee (the Community Affairs Team) following a quite unusual procedure and with dubious charges.
I don't know what happened. I have seen some IRC logs, and a Twitter conversation that IMO doesn't really deserve the imposed penalty (if any at all). But, well, maybe there are other causes that didn't become public.
In any case, there are two things that really worry me. One is the powers attributed to that committee: TPF doesn't have a CoC, there is one for conferences, P5P has its own, but nothing really focused on the community as a whole. So, are they doing the rules along the way, deciding what is acceptable and what not? Are they also able to set the penalties on the go? It also seems they can rule everywhere, even in places way outside the domains of the Perl Foundation as Twitter or Freenode.
The other point that worries me is the possibility of Matt being punished just by criticizing the pumpkin, his ideas or his actions. The pumpkin (or the PSC now) is a volunteer and the work he does is inestimable. But he is also a public figure with a great responsibility and his actions are going to impact our future, so I think it is the right of everybody on the community, and specially of somebody like Matt, to scrutinize what he does and challenge him whenever he things he is doing wrong. And even to do it vehemently and persistently.
The pumpkin (or PSC) as a public figure, IMO, doesn't have the right to silence people opposing him, his actions or his ideas. | [reply] |
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How could this be off-topic???
Good question - and I'm curious to learn how that assessment was reached (and by whom).
(Also, despite what haj wrote, it was actually "news" to me.)
Cheers,
Rob
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hello the node seems to have been modified by some god, moved from News to no where (see here).
> This posting has been designated as off-topic for the PerlMonks web site. Please do not respond to it.
The above label has a link to offtopic root where Tough beans are.
This is the first time I see such ban-ner and it perplexes me: Off-Topic were always accepted and also somehow welcome here. A post or is legitimate or must be reaped: Please do not respond to it ...seriously?
I ask to be pointed to the perlmonks documetation in regard of this off-topic ban, or otherwise the the banner shall be removed.
L*
PS April 27 16:53 GMT-1 I have moved the post back to Perl News
There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.
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There is a worrying tendency to cannibalism in the last years.
I don't know this case, the headlines are frustrating enough.
But I know people who suffered under MSTs outbursts before. So he's certainly part of the general problem.
I whished the community had stable political structures to canalize different interests into civil discussions and transparent decisions, instead of hurting people in public dog-fights.
PS: I like MST. (Update) I like Sawyer. I like Liz. I like Reini. ...
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LanX, I think you nailed. The question is, why do highly productive and interesting people end upgetting cancelled. On one hand, out bursts are part of it. On the other hand, objective outlets for actual contributions must exist. I think we are lacking the latter, and this can cause frustration for people who just want to get shit done. Imagine all the people who didn't try to raise the alarm, for fear of cancellation. They've just left and nobody even noticed.
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hmmm, good collection, thanks. but why are you an anonymous monk? don't you also fear to be punished by CAT?
I am trying to improve my English skills, if you see a mistake please feel free to reply or /msg me a correction
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banned for life
It might be a good idea to say banned for life from what, exactly?
They're banned from attending any Perl Foundation conferences or events.
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That is in the announcement linked on the OP:
The CAT has informed the individual investigated as part investigation #1 and #2 that they are banned from attending any Perl Foundation conferences or events in perpetuity.
The CAT has instructed the individual to leave and cease participation on any public IRC channels on irc.perl.org, leave and cease participation on the Perl and Raku public channels on Freenode, unsubscribe and cease participation on any Perl and Raku community mailing lists including but not limited to the perl5-porters mailing list
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Re: Perl Foundation Community Affairs Team Transparency Report
by salva (Canon) on May 09, 2021 at 10:19 UTC
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Neil Bowers has published an Open Letter to the Perl Foundation Board also signed by prominent members of the Perl community (or communities!)
Oh dear ... you've gotta feel sympathy for the poor ol' CAT.
They get rid of one troublemaker, and 10 more pop up to take its place.
(It's like Greek Mythology on steroids.)
Cheers,
Rob
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"They get rid of one troublemaker, and 10 more pop up to take its place."
Interesting, what makes you believe these people to be troublemakers?
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Re: Perl Foundation Community Affairs Team Transparency Report
by hippo (Bishop) on May 19, 2021 at 22:54 UTC
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As the saga rumbles on and on the board of TPF have now published their own review which admits some mistakes but denies others.
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If Mithaldu's responses are anything to go by they seem to have been given a load of shovels and can't help themselves from digging the hole ever deeper.
Another thing I noticed recently was their report on the recent survey
https://news.perlfoundation.org/post/newcomer-survey-results-actions
In the report they say:
The results highlighted four key themes that require action:
- Visibility;
- IDE (Integrated Development Environment);
- CPAN recommendations; and
- Civility.
Further down...
Civility
Respondents want discussion forums to be polite, welcoming and supportive. They want to feel comfortable asking questions.
I don't remember anywhere in the survey where they asked about this "civility", so I downloaded the spreadsheet of the raw data and nowhere could I find anything that would lead one to come to this conclusion. The only place it could be mentioned was in the very last question which was freeform response. One respondent complained about a bad experience they had on IRC years ago and that was it.
Quite a few respondents mentioned that Perlmonks was missing from their list of places where new users could find help. I wonder how they plan on policing this monastery which they refuse to even acknowledge.
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Re: Perl Foundation Community Affairs Team Transparency Report
by hippo (Bishop) on Jun 26, 2021 at 09:47 UTC
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Re: Perl Foundation Community Affairs Team Transparency Report
by perlfan (Vicar) on May 06, 2021 at 06:41 UTC
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What is CAT? Who is CAT? Why do they write like they're literal cats writing LOLCODE and i can't haz mst and running it through Google translate 500 times? What is a TLA and why do they love them? All I could find is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLA%2B, and that doesn't make sense. Or does it? Do our feline friends require a microsoft product to, design, model, document, and verify programs, especially concurrent systems and distributed systems? I think you know the answer, of course they do. They're not dogs, dogs would rather spend time licking their "bees knees".
Seriously, have we become so disunited that we're letting actual cats run perl now? Actually in all seriousness, what individuals are on CAT? I can't find that list. | [reply] |
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What is CAT?
In an (online) mongers meeting yesterday I jokingly suggested the creation of the Department Of Governance, abbreviated DOG, to set up community rules and how to deal with violations.
Jokes aside: It has become quite apparent that many members of the Perl communities are uncomfortable (or worse) with the recent activity of CAT, and the recent update doesn't help a lot (it helps a bit, though).
I guess that by now, many people involved in the case are also unhappy and didn't want it to turn out like this. I also guess most of them are aware of their own contribution to the mess. However, I consider it very hard for any party to leave their defensive fortresses as long as the public bashing in both directions continues (see, for an example, the comments to the CAT update). The way to peace will be a long and difficult one, and the first step is to stop trying to win the fight.
There is no us and them. There's only us. And all of us are different.
A good Community Affairs Team can help keeping the peace. It needs to build a reputation so that people talk to them instead of going public if they have social problems. Their role could then be to unite, not to split, the community. For not thinking enough about the consequences of their publication in this case DOG considers to give CAT a severe barking.
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Re: Perl "CAT" response to Pumpking resignation turmoil
by haj (Vicar) on Apr 26, 2021 at 14:07 UTC
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This isn't actually "news". Whoever is following the publications of TPF saw this a week ago, and there was plenty of turmoil regarding this article in various media as well.
So let me just quote Neil Bowers, who is acting on behalf of the Perl Steering Committee in this case: ...think twice before commenting, either here or elsewhere.
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Re: Perl Foundation Community Affairs Team Transparency Report
by Anonymous Monk on Apr 29, 2021 at 11:11 UTC
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I'm sure this post will get cancelled just like Matt ... I love perl and I've used it since 1994 but seriously, just fuck the Committee for Authoritarian Totalitarianism and fuck perl. I'm done. I can't imagine a better way to pound the final nail in perl's coffin than this. I'm sure at least 2 or 3 new programmers will rush to drink the new flavor of toxic koolaid. But whatever, I'm just an old man pissing into the wind.
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper
So long and thanks for all the fish.
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