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Re^4: A "Perl-7" that I could actually USE right now

by Ralesk (Pilgrim)
on Jul 01, 2013 at 10:34 UTC ( #1041810=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Re^3: A "Perl-7" that I could actually USE right now
in thread A "Perl-7" that I could actually USE right now

Iím afraid that anything thatís part of p6 doesnít fall under the ďI could actually USE right nowĒ category :)

  • Comment on Re^4: A "Perl-7" that I could actually USE right now

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v5, a reimplementation of P5 (was Re^5: A "Perl-7" that I could actually USE right now)
by raiph (Deacon) on Jul 01, 2013 at 20:50 UTC
    Sept 2014 update:

    • v5 reached around 8,000 passing tests at the start of 2014 as an NQP project that needed a custom Rakudo and didn't have proper access to CPAN. FROGGS has since turned it in to a full P6 project which means v5 can now: use Rakudo's module infrastructure, and hence access CPAN with full P6 module management power; be installed via Panda; be hacked more easily.

    • There's an approach that's an alternative/complement to v5, namely embedding libperl (see the paragraph starting "Mixing P6 and Perl 5 with XS"). The specific proposal linked in that comment hasn't yet happened but nine's new Inline::Perl5 (which takes advantage of NativeCall work done this year by FROGGS) seems to be a better approach in the near term anyway.

    (Rewritten to be more useful for folk reading this comment out of its original context.)

    use v5 is a new (started April 2013) project aiming to build a P5 reimplementation.

    It builds on Rakudo/NQP, a new open source compiler/ast/vm toolchain used to implement Perl 6.

    Apart from writing "use v5;" at the top of files, using v5 doesn't require that you write or read any Perl 6 code. You just write Perl 5 code and run it. Results will of course depend on how far the project has progressed.

    v5's current goal is to pass as much of the non-XS parts of the p5p perl 5 test suite as possible. It will likely take years to achieve substantial coverage, assuming it one day does. At the time of writing this comment it's passing 1,000 or so of the 40,000 or so tests in the suite. See STATUS for the current passcount.

    The host compiler toolchain includes a backend which is slated to embed libperl and support use of existing XS modules. It's not clear to what degree, if any, v5 can or will be able to make use of this to extend its utility to cover scenarios involving use of XS modules.

    The v5 project builds on parsing features (grammars) and a parser (STD) designed by Larry Wall.

    For more info watch this 20 minute video or view the v5 github repo or the use v5 blog or visit the IRC channel #perl6 on freenode.

        It took FROGGS about 6 weeks (about May 19th) to pass the first 400 tests, 4 weeks (about June 19th) to pass the next 400, and 2 weeks for the next 400.

        Compare with the Rakudo/JVM port. jnthn began the branch around 20th April. He got to "hello world" on May 14th. The port was passing about 60% as many tests as the Parrot port by mid June. Today it's at 90%. The v5 project isn't going to go as fast as that, but I doubt it's close to the first inflexion of the S-curve of progress.

        I'm familiar with your complaints about jnthn's nom predictions. However, I haven't taken your word for it, nor have I focused on that single datapoint, but have instead watched #perl6 daily for 2 years. (I did not begin to speak up here at PM about P6 until I'd been doing that for around 6 months.) The P6 project, including jnthn, has been consistently delivering on the projections I've seen made internally over the last 2 years. I am confident that v5 will grow in to another useful option available to Perl 5 programmers over the next few years, even when one or more nqp backends deliver some level of XS compatibility.

        The context for my comments was clearly not things folk can use right now to rely on -- or even get stuff done unreliably. sundialsvc4's language about something he "could actually USE right now" isn't, ironically, about something he could actually use right now. It's about something he wants in the future. The same is true with Ralesk's comment. S/he's talking about there being an experiment to produce something new. But it is clear that v5 isn't someone just dreaming; it was Larry's idea since near the start of the P6 project, there's now substantive code, there's a good architecture, there's a plan, you can run it right now.

        Really this is about the classic virtues of laziness, impatience and hubris that Larry invented as guidelines for creating a better future. The laziness that says we want P5 to run faster, out of the box, without fiddling. The impatience that says "why not start now?" The hubris that's about thinking we can get it done rather than fearing the future.

        It is not about the laziness you are demonstrating of reacting only to first impressions, the impatience you are demonstrating that leads one to act before thoroughly investigating or caring about others, or the hubris you are demonstrating of believing you're a god because you're famous.

        I glanced at another comment you've posted that appears to be full of shouting. I've decided I'm not going to bother to read it for a few days. If it contains something you would like to see a response to quickly, try posting again with less bolded text. Thanks.

      Why do you summarily reject a project that so perfectly matches what you suggest?

      You should take time out and study the backlash effects of misleading advertising.

      With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

        But but but some guy is on the same IRC channel with the author of that project, and he said maybe it's time to think seriously about productizing the project. After all, all of the readme file of the project is written in the enterprise-class English language which has proven its worth over centuries of use for serious business.

        You too can join the fun, if you're not a nattering nabob of negativity, if you join the #whatever IRC channel. As raiph himself predicted over four years ago, it's right on schedule to start getting actual users who are interested in contributing to this fun and important project which some other guy has called "vital to the healthy and continued future of BOTH Perl 5 and Perl 6!".

        Even better, the author if this project is currently exploring ways to make it more interesting than the calculator app included with your phone.

        As you can see, it is both practical and fun, and it is further more inevitable that this time, a Perl 6 project will deliver something useful.

        I was responding to the comment:

        It would indeed be a really interesting experiment to create something thatís compatible with most non-abusive uses of p5, but is better defined and cleaner on the inside.

        I thought and still think that v5 perfectly matches those words. (With the exception that it's not an experiment; it's another step toward completion of the overall P6 vision; but it still matches Ralesk's description). So I mentioned v5.

        Folk can and often will twist whatever is said to match their worldview. But I will not be ruled by the fear that chromatic's P6 wounds might still not have healed, nor will I put much store in AM trolls that get negative votes. (I take all feedback into account, but let the silent word of the monastery, in the form of votes, guide me more than anything else.)

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