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Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks

by haukex (Chancellor)
on Oct 14, 2019 at 13:52 UTC ( #11107414=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

The document The Path to Raku includes this:

Sites such as PerlMonks appear to be really Perl (aka Perl 5) focused, and could possible make that clear in their description, or change their description to specifically include Raku.

Although it's true that most of the nodes posted on PM are about Perl 5, several of the gods have made it clear on several occasions that Perl 6 / Raku posts are welcome. So this node is just to point out that references to "Raku" should probably be included in the PerlMonks description, although I'm not yet sure what the best way to do so is.

Also, I'm not sure if it's feasible to go back and change existing posts, but perhaps we should standardize a [raku] tag for post titles.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by LanX (Archbishop) on Oct 14, 2019 at 14:15 UTC
    There is a saying along the line of

    "50% of potential problems disappear after waiting for a while."

    I don't really see the need for actionism here, as long as we have no real problem.

    For instance:

    If you dig into the archives here you'll find threads around the problem that "Perl" should never be written "perl" or "PERL".

    While maybe technically true, are those efforts mostly needless nitpicking after a harmless typo.

    And we have many slightly off topic discussions here around JavaScript, SQL or Python. So why should Raku - which is far closer to Perl 5 - be a problem?

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
    Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      Sure, I get your point!

      AFAIK, one of the selling points of the "Raku" name was that it could be used to disassociate the language from Perl, which has some stigma (IMHO unwarranted, obviously ;-) ). New people coming to "Raku" in the future may be only vaguely aware of its history, or not at all, and so it might be confusing to them that "you can ask Raku questions on this site called PerlMonks", that's all.

      And we have many slightly off topic discussions here around JavaScript, SQL or Python. So why should Raku - which is far closer to Perl 5 - be a problem?

      It's not a problem - but we normally tag OT posts as such, and the [perl6] tag has been suggested and used several times for Perl 6 posts, so why not [raku] instead?

        I say: Wait and see.

        Naming problems are not logical and should only be addressed when they pose a real problem.

        For instance Pennsylvania Dutch is a misnomer. It's not Dutch it's a High German° dialect.

        Or is "Dutch" a misnomer? Since it's just the English prononciation of Deutsch.

        Or is "German" a misnomer and should be called Dutch in English?

        Or should Austria, Switzerland and the Benelux countries sue Germany for using the name "Deutschland" exclusively?

        Too theoretical?

        What about Canadians being North Americans but not Americans...

        What about Brittany not being part of Great Britain?

        FWIW: they should have named it "Perl++" ( and that right from the beginning) and I bet that's what's going to happen in the end.

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

        update

        °) formerly also known as High Dutch

      "50% of potential problems disappear after waiting for a while."

      Wise words, brother LanX

      I hope we needn't worry, haukex, Raku has always been a valid path in the ways of Perl to me.

      Cheers, Sören

      Créateur des bugs mobiles - let loose once, run everywhere.
      (hooked on the Perl Programming language)

      Given that Perl is famous for using non-perl languages to solve some problems, be it with Inline::C, JavaScript::V8 or even Inline::Python, i don't see a problem with adding raku to the mix.

      I'm guessing the same will happen with raku questions as is happening with most of the other questions not directly related to Perl. We'll solve to problem or point to somewhere more appropriate to solve that particular problem... while at the same time some monks are getting curious and start to come up with a pure-perl solution (or a way of packaging that foreign-language solution into a nice module for CPAN).

      perl -e 'use MIME::Base64; print decode_base64("4pmsIE5ldmVyIGdvbm5hIGdpdmUgeW91IHVwCiAgTmV2ZXIgZ29ubmEgbGV0IHlvdSBkb3duLi4uIOKZqwo=");'
        I'm pretty open to other languages in a Perl context and always defended tolerance.

        But you are replying to a node I wrote before Liz made her statement.

        Hence my point to "wait and see" was spot on.

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by jdporter (Canon) on Oct 14, 2019 at 19:54 UTC

    Excellent discussion, everyone. I personally believe that Raku should have its own web-based community (if they want — or else live on Stack Exchange, or whatever else that language community deems best); and that unless and until that web-based community is up and running, we, PerlMonks, should open our doors to our brethren. I presume that it will not be more than a temporary arrangement.

    Update...

    So looking at the 'Community' page on perl6.org, it seems that they actively manage live chats and mailing lists, and various individuals have blogs; and aside from that there's an acknowledged presence on Stack Overflow. So what I wonder is: Are the folks in the Raku community content with what they have? Or -- more concisely -- is there any concensus in the Raku community that they need/want something like PerlMonks but don't have it yet? I think the bottom line is: Unless the Raku user community needs something like PerlMonks and PerlMonks is the only extant solution to that need, we establish the position henceforth that Raku discussions are not to be hosted here, and we'll politely redirect them to the other resources they have. As much as we love the PerlMonks format, it might not be what the Raku folks want.

    I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.
      Well that's probably the ironic boomerang of selling the name change by better acceptance beneath Perl haters...

      ... Unless someone starts a great new Rakumonks website...

      Update

      ... Ah already registered.

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
      Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      Thank you for your reply, as well as thanks to haj and liz for similar arguments. That sounds like a reasonable way to handle it.

Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by haj (Chaplain) on Oct 15, 2019 at 08:16 UTC
    So this node is just to point out that references to "Raku" should probably be included in the PerlMonks description

    I admit that I don't know what counts for the PerlMonks description - maybe What is PerlMonks? That node has not been updated to include a statement about Perl 5 vs. Perl 6, and in my opinion it should just stick to "Perl" and any mention of Raku would just be wrong.

    PerlMonks has very few nodes with Raku content. The Perl 6 community doesn't advertise PerlMonks, I don't know if it ever did. A Raku community is even less likely to refer to PerlMonks. Their presence in various discussion forums makes it clear that Raku doesn't actually need PerlMonks.

    I feel that explicitly writing that PerlMonks is open for Raku topics would be intrusive and against the spirit of the renaming, and writing that it doesn't welcome Raku content would look like we'd explicitly single out Raku among all the topics which don't belong to PerlMonks.

    The only downside is that the Raku community will take PerlMonks with its "Perl = Perl 5" attitude as example why the renaming was necessary. Now that the renaming has happened, I'm absolutely fine with this.

Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 15, 2019 at 12:12 UTC
    I think that PerlMonks should be about Perl 5 only. Very simply because the word "Perl" implies "Perl 5" to the outside world, even more so now the rename of "Perl 6" to "Raku" has been put in action. As various people have noted in this thread, PerlMonks wasn't a place that was recommended by the Perl 6 community for questions about Perl 6 in the past. And this will even become less so now with the rename.

    I've spend a lot of time on PerlMonks in the past, and I have fond memories of it. And also not some not so nice memories. But that's a thing of the past, and we need to look to the future.

    Let PerlMonks be about Perl 5 so we can all start healing. Please don't try to be politically correct. Just politely point people with questions about "Perl 6" or "Raku" to https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/perl6 now, and https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/raku in the further future.

    And soon enough we'll meet again, somewhere, somehow. Because blood is thicker than water.

    Elizabeth Mattijsen

      Hi Liz!

      (provided that's really you speaking and not an anonymous troll)

      Following this logic we'll won't have any "Raku" talks anymore at Perl workshops like YAPC or TPC or *PW because of the P???

      Jeez... Really?

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
      Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

        Rolf,

        yes this is me. I just cannot be bothered to look up my login credentials. I hope you understand.

        I was just talking about "PerlMonks". As that has deep roots in Perl 5, and a community that is 99%+ focused on Perl 5.

        With regards to events: we will see. As I've stated many times before in the past year: I will no longer attend or sponsor any events that have just "Perl" in their name, like "London Perl Workshop" or "Perl Toolchain Summit". Because, now even more than before the rename, "Perl" just by itself means "Perl 5". So any potential speakers or visitors would be unaware that "Raku" presentations would be an option there.

        Elizabeth Mattijsen

Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by Random_Walk (Prior) on Oct 23, 2019 at 17:33 UTC

    Same Site, Two Faces

    I love the idea of a  [raku] tag, but how about having two URLS for the same site and two skins. The serious get 'I come to get work done' look of Perlmonks if you address it that way, or the fluttery colourful world of Raku if you come to RakuMonks.com (plus all your posts default to having the [raku] mark upon them. :)

    Now, can the gods please make it so :)

    Cheers,
    R.

    Pereant, qui ante nos nostra dixerunt!

      If you split it up like this, you might just as well have a completely separated forum.

      Jenda
      1984 was supposed to be a warning,
      not a manual!

Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks
by 1nickt (Abbot) on Oct 14, 2019 at 20:21 UTC

    Given that the main impetus for changing the name among the Raku developers who supported the move was to dissociate their language from Perl, and the PR goes to great lengths to purge "Perl" as completely as possible from their ecosystem, why would we think that even they would welcome such a mention here?

    This reminds me a little of Hiroo Onoda, or maybe more like Attun Palalin, as he wasn't even Japanese.


    The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
      why would we think that even they would welcome such a mention here?

      See the text I quoted.

        That quote seems to me to exemplify the context I mentioned: that they don't want to be included in a Perl-focused site unless it's made clear that Raku's not Perl. I don't think you can interpret that small quote as seeking inclusion.


        The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks (Perl6)(raku) questions as welcome as always (tags) not [tags]
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 15, 2019 at 09:07 UTC

    (Perl6)(raku)Re: Inclusion of Raku on PerlMonks (Perl6)(raku) questions as welcome as always (tags) not tags

    perl 6 questions as always are "welcome" even if they call it roku or raku or whatever now

    anyone who says different is a sore a* :)

    however we don't get a lot

    Unless your question is about arrays or perlmonks linking shortcuts... use (tags) [not tags ]

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