Beefy Boxes and Bandwidth Generously Provided by pair Networks
No such thing as a small change
 
PerlMonks  

Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live

by Will_the_Chill (Pilgrim)
on Sep 22, 2015 at 09:15 UTC ( [id://1142712]=perlmeditation: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

Greetings, Monks!

I am proud to announce the launch of our next Kickstarter campaign.

We immediately reached our minimum of $1,701; now our goal is to reach $20K in the next 9 days. We can do it... WITH YOUR HELP!

STEP 1: Make a generous pledge.
STEP 2: Get your friends to match your pledge.
STEP 3: Get your boss to double your pledge.
STEP 4: Go back and increase your pledge.
STEP 5: PERL WILL BE THE FASTEST LANGUAGE EVER.

Thanks so much for your continued support of RPerl!

Perling,
~ Will the Chill
  • Comment on Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live
by BrowserUk (Patriarch) on Sep 26, 2015 at 23:41 UTC

    Hey Will, me again. Same problem.

    Too much hype and not enough fact.

    You want to atract interest and maybe investment? Stop trying to sell; and simply demonstrate.

    Pick a problem. Write a piece of (non contrived; non-simplistic) Perl code that solves that (real world) problem; and the Benchmark it (the exact same script):

    1. Under bog standard perl (say 5.20);
    2. And again under RPerl running under (over; in concert with) the same version of Perl.

    Publish the script. Publish the command sessions to run both versions. And publish a straight forward, line-by-line, textual, command line session to down load and install all the requirements of RPerl.

    Forget the hype. Forget the videos. Forget fancy meaningless graphics and js-heavy websites.

    One, simple, plain html(4) page of text that gives us:

    1. Where to obtain and how to install RPerl over a recent version of Perl.
    2. The script being tested.
    3. The results (actual timings) of the two runs.
    4. The command lines required to run both tests to reproduce your results for ourselves.
    5. A simple bullet point list of what constructs are supported (or those not supported if shorter). Now, in the current available version.
    6. A clear list of the goals of the funding you seek. (Bullet points that show what that is currently not supported that can be with more funding.)

    Do all of that; and you might encourage people to look; to try; to access; and maybe, fund.


    With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". I knew I was on the right track :)
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
    I'm with torvalds on this Agile (and TDD) debunked I told'em LLVM was the way to go. But did they listen!
      Hi BrowserUk,

      Thank you for your continued interest in RPerl!

      To answer your concerns:

      Pick a problem

      DONE: Alioth "n-body" Solar System Gravity Application

      Write a piece of (non contrived; non-simplistic) Perl code that solves that (real world) problem

      DONE: Both Monolithic Version and Non-Monolithic Version

      Benchmark it (the exact same script) under bog standard Perl and again under RPerl running under the same version of Perl

      DONE: n-body Benchmarks

      Publish the script

      DONE: n-body Script

      Publish the command sessions to run both versions

      DONE: n-body Command Sequence

      Publish a straight forward, line-by-line, textual, command line session to down load and install all the requirements of RPerl

      DONE: RPerl INSTALL Notes (Hint: Use Ubuntu & type `cpan RPerl`)

      Forget the hype; Forget the videos

      NO: I am excited about RPerl and so are many other people. Kickstarter virtually requires videos, and I have no intention of stopping that just because you don't like videos. If you have actual feedback of how to make the videos better, I'm more than open to constructive criticism!

      Forget fancy meaningless graphics and js-heavy websites

      NO: Graphics are a proven aid to memory, even if you do not happen to personally be a graphics-oriented learner. You think that RPerl.org is Javascript-heavy? It is one of the default templates from Github Pages. I did not create whatever Javascript to which you may be referring, it was Github.

      One, simple, plain html(4) page of text that gives us...

      YES: I will create an RPerl Quick Start Guide, but not tonight, it is 5:30am and I need to sleep soon.

      A simple bullet point list of what constructs are supported (or those not supported if shorter). Now, in the current available version.

      DONE: Low-Magic Perl Commandments

      A clear list of the goals of the funding you seek. (Bullet points that show what that is currently not supported that can be with more funding.)

      DONE: Kickstarter "v1.2 Features" and "Stretch Goals"; TPF Proposal 1; TPF Proposal 2; TPF Proposal 3; and TPF Proposal 4.

      Do all of that; and you might encourage people to look; to try; to access; and maybe, fund.

      The only thing not currently done is to copy all the stuff from this post into an HTML file to make the RPerl Quick Start Guide.

      Meanwhile, please go ahead and read through this post carefully, then let me know if I have missed anything which should go into the Quick Start Guide. I am counting on your contribution to Kickstarter before the campaign ends in 4 days.

      Thanks!

      Perling,
      ~ Will the Chill

        For me, personally, the "Low-Magic Perl Commandements" do not really read like a technical list of things that are supported or unsupported. I think it would fare better with a preamble of "These are the features that you will need to write your code to such that RPerl can support it". But reinterpreting them as a technical list of things that are supported or unsupported, there are some commandements that will hinder RPerl to become ever usable for me:

        17. THOU SHALT NOT:Use Dynamic-Type Data, Auto-Vivification, Or Tied Variables

        This means that DBI and DBD::* are right out of the window without major retooling of DBI and all related code not to rely on tie'd hashes.

        19. THOU SHALT NOT: Use Private Dynamic-Scope (“local”), Private Persistent Lexical-Scope (“state”), Global, Or Package Variables (“our”)

        Of course, global variables have their place and are highly useful, for example as global defaults. Whenever there is a lexical variable in global scope, that lexical variable should be a global variable in case somebody really wants to override it. Maybe some arguments as to why avoiding local and global variables would be good. For example, such variables make reasoning about value escape much, much harder and preclude some optimizations. But taken as an absolute, they are not good recommendations.

        21. THOU SHALT NOT: Use Typeglobs, Code References, Weak References, Or Magic Lvalues (Builtins, Non-Variables, Non-Slices, etc)

        I'm not sure what the technical gain here is. But without code references every dispatch table flies out of the window. Without weak references you can't really implement trees or doubly-linked lists or other data structures in a way that enables the reference-counted memory management to clean up such structures automatically.

        23. THOU SHALT NOT: Use Aliased, Non-Descriptive, Special ($1, $a, %ENV, %SIG, etc), Or Punctuation Variables ($_, @_, %!, $@, $$, etc)

        What is the technical reason for RPerl to not allow access to those variables?

        35. THOU SHALT NOT: Use Taint Mode

        This is a WTF as written. Taint mode relies heavily on magic, so I understand the technical reason for this but it needs some more elaboration. The corresponding "THOU SHALT" of "34. Use Secure Platforms & Trusted Data" moves this recommendation into rainbow unicorn country. If we're able to make wishes come true, why doesn't rule 34 say "THOU SHALT WRITE FAST,SHORT,CORRECT AND EASILY UNDERSTOOD PROGRAMS" and replace all preceding and following rules instead?

        I find the reliance on PBP and Perl::Critic makes it an instant turn-off because much of PBP isn't that great a practice without further review and adaption to the situation at hand. This is recommended on the first pages of PBP, but I found people referring to PBP always took PBP as literal gospel instead of reviewing the recommendations before applying them.

        DONE: Both Monolithic Version and Non-Monolithic Version

        Behind one of those links I see two package definitions. Behind the other, one.

        Neither has the calling code required to use those packages; so I've got to go looking for the motherscript.

        Both have a dependency on RPerl; so, I can't see how to run the test without RPerl.

        So: NOT done. So; not interested in following the rest of the links.


        With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". I knew I was on the right track :)
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
        I'm with torvalds on this Agile (and TDD) debunked I told'em LLVM was the way to go. But did they listen!
Re: Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live
by LanX (Saint) on Sep 26, 2015 at 20:02 UTC
    In this thread most people tried to help you formulating a more convincing application for funding.

    It might be obvious for you that your project is no vapor ware, but if repeating the same arguments over and over again doesn't convince people, you should consider taking advice.

    No need to get personal about this.

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
    Je suis Charlie!

      Rolf,

      Thank you for your interest in RPerl.

      The only close-to-on-point comment made before yours was from Laurent_R, but nevertheless I've continued to make the effort to address each person's issues over the years, and I shall continue to do so now.

      Have you looked at any of the RPerl information?

      Do you have any specific feedback to give?

      Thanks,
      ~ Will
        > Do you have any specific feedback to give?

        Well, yes my feedback on your communication strategy was specific and on topic (which is "raising funds").

        > Have you looked at any of the RPerl information?

        Nope and I don't need to, its an open discussion board here.

        Cheers Rolf

        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
        Je suis Charlie!

Re: Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 24, 2015 at 17:15 UTC
    Show progress. Your funding is past your first benchmark. Show that you reach it. Show exactly how much you burned to get there. Show how fast it actually is now, and how (and why how) it will be faster at next funding step. Many people have been burned by KickStarter. Expect progress payments, just ahead of demo'd progress and need, not a fat war chest.
      I agree with Anonymous Monk. This looks exciting and I might be tempted help to help and give a few bucks, but your only link is to the fund raising campaign (a nice clip, BTW), but nothing related to the project objectives, or about the project progress, nothing about the results so far, nothing about what the simplified Perl to work with your compiler is supposed to mean, and so on.

      Also, the only benchmark is, I understand, an astronomy n-body problem, so, I would guess, a very CPU-intensive problem, with possibly some opportunities for multi-threading or even massive parallel processing. Any way to get more details? About other types of processing where performance matters?

      To Will: can you supply tools and data where I could test (and understand) what you are doing?

        Hi Laurent,

        I am a bit confused by your questions... Did you actually scroll down past the video on the Kickstarter page??? I believe all the information you seek is already published there: project objectives, project progress, results so far, etc.

        More info about the benchmarks is here.

        More info on using (and testing) RPerl is here.

        After reading all this, please don't hesitate to let me know if you have any further questions.

        Perling,
        ~ Will the Chill

        I would say that the above three have delivered a great amount of value already.

        The list doesn't really go "on and on", but have you applied for a Perl Grant for RPerl?

        Personally, your campaign strikes me as very close to spamming, as you only repost a short blurb here and on blogs.perl.org (and I don't know where else), with some weirdo microbenchmarks that claim to make everything better. I didn't watch your video because I like to spend my video time on cat videos. If there is substantial information somewhere, it didn't catch my eye.

        Maybe the three people you mention above are just better at marketing than you?

        A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.
        That's a good point. Worthington hasn't delivered anything useful either.

        Perhaps the TPF should stop throwing good money after bad?

Re: Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler, Part 15: RPerl v1.2 Kickstarter Now Live
by u65 (Chaplain) on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:46 UTC

    In spite all the negative comments I've seen here, I see the eventual goal of Will's team is to make all the magic work in a more highly optimized manner. It seems most monks are picking at nits and not looking at the materials Will has presented fairly. (But the one-page style web site doesn't help matters I admit.) I commend your work, Will, and wish you continued support.

    BTW, if you follow Perl 6 you will see Jonathan is delivering lots of valuable code for the project.

      > It seems most monks are picking at nits and not looking at the materials Will has presented fairly.

      (Strangely) Any publicity is good publicity.

      Far more people got somehow involved now. =)

      > In spite all the negative comments I've seen here ...

      Are they so negative?

      The root problem is that Will doesn't seem to be experienced with board discussions or even like them.

      All his 150 posts so far were related to his project only.

      (Here his first post: Perl 5 Optimizing Compiler)

      So my impression is:

      • He's quickly loosing passion when people ask stuff that is somewhere hidden in his webpage.
      • He seems to feel attacked where a dialog could produce profitable insights for all sides.
      • And he doesn't seem to know how to link to older dialogs, when it starts to be redundant.
      • Last but not least, he seems to perceive us as a monolithic block. Many regulars here are special, too. (Tolerance is not a one way street)

      And while most of us are very positive about new approaches, we can't easily tolerate posts with buzz words in high frequency (this borders to spam)

      This is a discussion board after all, if he posts here he should not be surprised to evoke discussions and shouldn't in return start to accuse people.

      Maybe you should help him improving his PR strategy?

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

        Maybe you should help him improving his PR strategy?

        I would but I'm afraid my track record for PR is pretty miserable!

Log In?
Username:
Password:

What's my password?
Create A New User
Domain Nodelet?
Node Status?
node history
Node Type: perlmeditation [id://1142712]
Approved by ww
Front-paged by bulk88
help
Chatterbox?
and the web crawler heard nothing...

How do I use this?Last hourOther CB clients
Other Users?
Others surveying the Monastery: (5)
As of 2024-05-21 20:26 GMT
Sections?
Information?
Find Nodes?
Leftovers?
    Voting Booth?

    No recent polls found