Beefy Boxes and Bandwidth Generously Provided by pair Networks
Keep It Simple, Stupid
 
PerlMonks  

What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!

by 1nickt (Abbot)
on Dec 07, 2015 at 13:10 UTC ( #1149576=perlmeditation: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

<rant>

Yes, this is a rant. I'm trying to rant less. But this is something I feel have to say, in the admittedly faint hope that it will reach the ears of someone in charge.

Today I went to look at "Perl 6." The Perl Weekly newsletter has been turning more and more into a promotional rag for "Perl 6," and then I saw that a good deal of the London Perl Workshop has been dedicated to it. So, after 20 years more or less of programming perl, I figured I should at least swing by and see what all the distraction is about.

Lo and behold when I get to the website of the "plucky little sister of Perl 5" (who wrote this marketing pablum, a 20-yr old Communications major?), I am greeted by a multicolored butterfly that looks like it belongs on the Disney Channel early-afternoon lineup.

What the HEY?!

Are you out of your MIND?

In the interests of keeping this rant short, I'll just say that if you were trying to convince serious programmers that "Perl 6" was worth any of their time to investigate, you could not have chosen a less effective design. To me this kindergarden art symbolizes:

  • shallowness
  • infantilism
  • dumbing down to try to widen the appeal
  • the ascendency of communications-major type people over critical thinkers and engineers
  • Microsoft Windows (remember the paper clip?)
  • the complete lack of seriousness of "Perl 6" as a programming language
and so on.

I write Perl for a living, for companies that use it to do business and make money. It's serious stuff, and it's fun because of how challenging it is, not because of a pink and purple anthropomorphic icon.

To the "Perl 6" people: I was already very skeptical of your project, given its debaculous history. Well, now I am convinced. You could not have done more to prove to me that, as I suspected, it is a vanity project of a handful of the brightest, most bored Perl 5 gurus, that has no application in the real world in which I live and program.

To be clear, your butterfly has turned me off from even beginning to read the content of your site, and I would imagine that I am very far from being the only one.

(Note: I looked for a place on the "Perl 6" website to post this as feedback, but no such link was to be found.)

Larry Wall would be rolling in his grave. Oh, wait ...

But for the rest of you, if you were that bored, couldn't you have just gone off quietly and tackled some new field of human endeavour if you were "over" Perl, like, for example, how tchrist became the arbiter of all aspects of the English language on Stackexchange? Why the need to try to "rebrand" Perl as a consumer product for millenial schoolgirls?

Can't Perl users file a class-action suit or something to force the Butterfly People to pick another name for their hobby?

</rant>
The way forward always starts with a minimal test.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by kcott (Bishop) on Dec 07, 2015 at 17:46 UTC

    G'day 1nickt,

    I'm also not a big fan (in truth, not really a fan at all) of Camelia, the butterfly logo. The remainder of my post is intended to be for information purposes only, i.e. no personal commentary.

    I note, throughout the Perl 6 Documentation, every page appears to have at the end: "The Camelia image is copyright 2009 by Larry Wall.".

    In this Linux Voice Interview with Larry Wall (in 2015):

    "LV: Last year in the UK, the government kicked off the Year of Code, an attempt to get young people interested in programming. There are lots of opinions about how this should be done like whether you should teach low-level languages at the start, so that people really understand memory usage, or a high-level language. Whats your take on that?"
    "LW: Up until now, the Python community has done a much better job of getting into the lower levels of education than we have. Wed like to do something in that space too, and thats partly why we have the butterfly logo, because its going to be appealing to seven year old girls!"

    The transcript of the interview is fairly long. The part I've quoted (which is roughly in the middle) pertains to your question but, as with all such things, you should probably read it in its original context.

    The image itself contains a (not particularly well-hidden) P6: P in the left forewing and 6 in the right forewing.

    "I looked for a place on the "Perl 6" website to post this as feedback, but no such link was to be found."

    The http://www.perl6.org/about/ page says "Your contribution is very welcome."; however, I also see on the same page: "Camelia as the logo for Perl 6 and perl6.org is not negotiable.".

    "Larry Wall would be rolling in his grave. Oh, wait ..."

    Beyond the obvious "Rumours of my death are greatly exaggerated." comment; I think Larry already knows about this. :-)

    — Ken

      Cheers, kcott, thanks for the history, I guess the cause was lost longer ago than I knew !

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Your Mother (Bishop) on Dec 07, 2015 at 14:27 UTC

    I also hate the butterfly but judging a product—especially a scientific, open source one—by its logos or taglines is ridiculous. I have worked in design and branding. I completely get your arguments and don't really disagree but… coming up with a competing branding is the solution, not insulting the ones who like or created the current leader and cajoling and insulting them into a commission of your view.

      This is especially true considering Camelia has been with us for years now. The time to complain if one wanted to do so was when the logo was being chosen, or at least before people paying attention to Perl6 before now came to recognize it readily as the logo.

        "The time to complain if one wanted to do so ..."

        IS NOW

        We complained back then too. You just ignored us.
      A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon for "Perl 6" ?!
by Discipulus (Abbot) on Dec 07, 2015 at 20:22 UTC
    Disillusion happens too. Democracy is worth your rant. I frontpaged your post because you expressed your own opinion, and you tryed to remain calm. I never saw Camelia and and when i did.. i smiled. You have my sympathy. But i'v done nothing to make Perl6 better, nor simply to be. In my perspective Perl6 belong in the futuristic possibilities. They like Camelia? It's good. You felt somehow lowered in your amor proprio (something like self exstimation, but for latins) by the choice? why? Is your Perl skill lowered by the childish butterfly? Is effectivness and power of your programs weakened? I bet that for your customer would be the same if you told them 'I'll do this using AbraCadabra' instead of Perl. Dont look at names, dont look at butterflies, better look at the landscape and at your tools. Also freacks with improbables shirts collars do well, and why not butterflies ?

    L*
    PS: i read in camelia.txt
    I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :)

    The intent is to make the world a better place, take the opportynity! ;=)
    The new logo must make Larry at least as happy as Camelia does.

    That is the extent to which my mind is still open... :-)

    Larry
    So if he likes it, what's the problem?
    L*


    There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
    Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.

      I’m a misogynist if I dislike crummy design? ఠ_ఠ

        No, of course! my daugther that is the intended audience of that art, draw by far better.

        L*


        There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
        Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Laurent_R (Canon) on Dec 08, 2015 at 19:04 UTC
    I am not a great fan of Camelia (which is supposed to be a software bug, ha, ha, I've read somewhere) either, I agree it looks a bit childish, but, come on, we can't judge a product according to its logo, this would be somewhat silly.

    And, although I am no fan of it, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it and I even used it for several tutorial articles in French I wrote on Perl 6 (such as this one: http://laurent-rosenfeld.developpez.com/tutoriels/perl/perl6/regex-grammaire-puissance/).

    Having said that, you might want to come up with an alternative. After all, the camel is much better known than the official onion as a symbol for Perl 5 (and I am not sure that I like very much either the camel or the onion either, BTW).

    I can understand very well that you don't like Camelia, but is this really important? Give the language a test and and give some feedback, whether positive or negative, that would, IMHO, be more useful.

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Anonymous Monk on Dec 07, 2015 at 14:10 UTC

    Ahem, the hazards of overworking. It's always a good thing to let yourself unwind a little, from time to time.

    Here's one movie suggestion for the occasion: The Big Lebowski (1998). Pay particular attention during the scene where the Lebowskis meet: this is how you tell apart the achievers and non-achievers. Very recommended.

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by molecules (Monk) on Dec 08, 2015 at 00:24 UTC
    I wasn't sold on Camelia either until I heard that she has a 3-meter wingspan. That's a mighty intimidating butterfly, no matter how cute!
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by QM (Parson) on Dec 11, 2015 at 13:31 UTC
    I see the theme of the perl6.org site to be in the direction of Thing Explainer -- that is, to be as inclusive as possible, without compromising too deeply into the quality of the design and implementation.

    People go there (and here) with many languages, backgrounds, experience, levels of sophistication, and a finite bucket of RoundTuits. It's a compromise between making a few mono-browed grunting hackers grumble (who frankly don't need the hand-holding), versus putting on a friendlier face and getting new visitors to stay 5 minutes longer, and increase the chances of joining the community.

    But if you want, I can dig out the CSS to change the butterfly to your favorite Bruce Campbell chainsaw-as-a-prosthetic movie poster. I'm sure that will be parent-approved across the world.

    -QM
    --
    Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Jenda (Abbot) on Dec 07, 2015 at 16:25 UTC

    There are many valid reasons to complain about the abuse of the Perl trademark by this failed project, but the logo ain't one. No matter how childish it is.

    Jenda
    Enoch was right!
    Enjoy the last years of Rome.

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by FreeBeerReekingMonk (Deacon) on Dec 12, 2015 at 12:53 UTC

    Old farts like us will keep on using perl 5 for a long time. It will be like cobol... we are not the main target audience.
    Now, new brands (like beer and cigarettes) target audiences as young as possible to get the maximum profit from new addicts. That said, Python has such a big headstart it will not be possible to surpass them soon (eventhough it is 3 different languages: 2.6, 2.7 and 3). So I am not sure if perl6+arduino or pe-game or pe-pe will exist.

    Now take the brand perl6 add Camelia (which contains 2 more 6's) and you get 666 or 6p6 if you insist of it being a p... where was I going with this? I forgot. Anyway, I like this logo better: http://www.audreyt.org/rakudo-camelia-sri.png

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by molecules (Monk) on Dec 08, 2015 at 01:43 UTC
    By the way, I really like your quote "The way forward always starts with a minimal test". How do you set up an automatic quote like that at the end of your messages?
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by sushi (Initiate) on Dec 29, 2015 at 05:12 UTC

    There's definitely a right and a wrong way to make programming accessible to a wider audience. Look at the homepage for LOVE, a Lua game programming library. Whales, hearts, nice colors, but it doesn't go so far as to gender itself, as Perl 6 does ("plucky littel sister of Perl 5").

    I'm reminded of a joke, "Mr." Coffee? Gendered appliances are why more young women don't dream of becoming coffee machines themselves.

Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Anonymous Monk on Dec 12, 2015 at 17:06 UTC
    I like it. It shows how serious even the Perl-6 developers take their clownshoes!
Re: What the HEY is up with the cartoon butterfly for "Perl 6" ?!
by Anonymous Monk on Dec 07, 2015 at 15:57 UTC

    Yes, this is a rant. .... I'm shallow

    Don't judge a book by its, oh wait, its ...

    yeah, I troll

    A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.

Log In?
Username:
Password:

What's my password?
Create A New User
Node Status?
node history
Node Type: perlmeditation [id://1149576]
Approved by Corion
Front-paged by Discipulus
help
Chatterbox?
and the web crawler heard nothing...

How do I use this? | Other CB clients
Other Users?
Others perusing the Monastery: (6)
As of 2019-12-11 00:47 GMT
Sections?
Information?
Find Nodes?
Leftovers?
    Voting Booth?

    No recent polls found

    Notices?