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Re^3: Think Perl 6 (new book)

by stevieb (Abbot)
on May 18, 2017 at 19:29 UTC ( #1190560=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Re^2: Think Perl 6 (new book)
in thread Think Perl 6 (new book)

You seem to think that a new language will kill off an old one. My opinion is that you're wrong. It's Java and Python that have lowered Perl in use, not perl6.

It is the colleges and universities that are adopting the newest and greatest fad doing the work, not the perl6 devs. Believing anything else is asinine (imho).

Many (if not most, I do not have statistical information) of the perl6 devs are still active in the perl5 community; perhaps some less than they used to be, but I digress. I'm a perl5 fanatic, and that is proven over and over. I bend over backwards to provide interfaces to even some of the most remote nonsense one can imagine. I also am a very seasoned Python programmer, and given berrybrew, I have some knowledge in C# as well (note that berrybrew is a project I took on *for* the perl5 community. Also note that I hate Windows, but sometimes you have to sacrifice for the greater good). I can also code my way out of a paper bag with C (with guidance in some situations), C++ and even two custom languages that were developed at my current place of employ.

Things fall out of favour naturally. Perl 4 is all but gone, and Perl 5 is a lucrative place for a job (if you can be so lucky to find one). For new devs, they won't find perl5 jobs any longer. It's the extremely experienced folks who will take over legacy systems, and possibly make them better (or even convert them to a new language (definitely not perl6 at this time) per a company's policy).

Again, saying a handful of perl6 developers who may or may not be writing about what they've learned is hurting perl5 is not only irresponsible and unfounded, it's an uneducated, non-factual and asinine thing to say.

Hanging on to something going out is a choice. I've made that choice personally by dedicating a whole crap-ton of my time to perl5. Not everyone thinks this way. I also hang on to my older vehicles because they don't have the new technology that I don't want in them. That doesn't mean that my neighbour who buys a 2017 vehicle doesn't still appreciate the '95 carburetor-fed 4x4 we work on together.

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Re^4: Think Perl 6 (new book)
by hippo (Canon) on May 18, 2017 at 21:42 UTC
    It's Java and Python that have lowered Perl in use, not perl6.

    Python has no doubt eaten into some of the space that was Perl's. They are quite similar in many respects and the choice of which to choose for a project will have little to do with the technology and more to do with available code and the programming team's preferences.

    But Java? Nah, I don't buy it. Java and Perl are about as far apart as you can get in terms of both language and implementation. Pick any project and you won't find anyone hovering between doing it in Java or in Perl - the spec will dictate the language every time if that's the binary choice.

    Secondly, Perl6 hasn't lowered Perl usage yet. But it will, and not from a technological standpoint because Perl6 will always suffer from the same implementation problems as Java due to its architecture. No, it will have a detrimental impact on Perl usage purely because of its name.

    My anonymous brother jested above about Perl7. If there ever is to be such a beast I hope that TPTB learn their lesson from the Perl6 naming disaster and choose to call their new language something else entirely. Python4 would be an amusing name for it.

      "Perl6 {will lower Perl usage} not from a technological standpoint because Perl6 will always suffer from the same implementation problems as Java due to its architecture."

      I found this sentence in your post confusing given what you said before. So I seek clarification. Are you saying words to the effect that:

      • "Perl6 does not suffer from the same implementation problems as Java so ..."; or
      • "Perl6 does suffer from the same implementation problems currently but that's temporary so ..."; or
      • "Perl6 does suffer from the same implementation problems as Java and always will; nevertheless ..."; or
      • something else?
      Thanks in advance if you have time and care to clarify which you meant.

        For clarity: Perl6 does suffer from the same implementation problems as Java and always will. Nevertheless ...

        In my post I didn't use the word "always" because who knows what will happen? Maybe in 5 years Rakudo will be abandoned and the standard Perl6 implementation will be quite different. But I've seen nothing to suggest that, looking from the outside.

        AFAICS, Perl and Perl6 will always have orthogonal use cases. It's only the Perl6 name which will damage Perl's usage and that is a real shame.

Re^4: Think Perl 6 (new book)
by stevieb (Abbot) on May 18, 2017 at 21:34 UTC

    I have received a few private messages regarding my statement regarding the employment situation of Perl 5 (which I've responded to privately). It warrants a statement however.

    Based on *my* experience in my country of residence (Canada), it has been difficult acquiring a Perl coding position. I know for fact that in the US (particularly the San Francisco Bay and surrounding "silicon valley") it should be trivial to attract attention to yourself, so long as you have some form of experience.

    In other countries, I am not acutely aware of the market. I see on the Perl jobs website that there is a market in the U.K. and surrounding areas as well.

    I'll never say perl5 isn't worth learning. To students or other interested parties learning Perl specifically for a job, I'd say do some market research due-diligence. That said, perl5 is so closely related to C (which students should be/or will be made familiar with), it's a fantastic gateway to any other language on the market. To me, Python was a finger-snap for me to learn, after understanding the basics of how Perl does Object Orientation (the original way; many employers are looking for Moose-y people, but the hard way is the best way before moving up to 'helpers' (imho).

    No matter how 'old' Perl seems, there will always be those who chastise it. Same goes for all other things, even if they aren't related to programming at all.

    In the end, I personally feel that even if one can't get a perl5 job specifically, the experience gained from understanding it will help with the understanding of many other languages, and will look good on the resume.

Re^4: Think Perl 6 (new book)
by Anonymous Monk on May 19, 2017 at 21:37 UTC
    "You seem to think that a new language will kill off an old one."

    It certainly helped kill Perl5. It certainly didn't help keep Perl5 alive.

Re^4: Think Perl 6 (new book)
by 1nickt (Abbot) on May 18, 2017 at 21:25 UTC

    stevieb, for someone throwing around terms like "uneducated" and "asinine" you sure opine a lot about things you don't know (when you're not tooting own your horn). For example, the Perl job market. There are four companies with large Perl codebases in SoCal alone just in the industry I work in that are hiring new devs all the time.

    The problem with "Perl6" is not that it's a new language, it's that it stole the name and reputation of an existing language. The goldrush of publishers, authors, conference presenters and self-promoting bandwagon jumpers seeking to exploit that *does* hurt Perl, by creating confusion in the minds of tech generalists and newcomers. To believe anything else is just, well, asinine.

    The way forward always starts with a minimal test.

      I'm annoyed now. You speak of SoCal. My daughter lives there, and realistically, as documented recently (here's one mention (I haven't researched the researcher, but it's common knowledge across the board) that even six-figure incomes are beginning to be known as "low income".

      I refuse to get into a discussion on living arrangements, but stating there's a position there (socal) by mentioning four places without any names, doesn't build credibility.

      Please explain what the requisites are for the positions at these four locations. What's the pay scale? What is the cost of living?

      I know asinine. I do my homework. As I said previously, I believe you to be an intelligent person all-around, but I feel you're focused on something that isn't yours. You're focused so hard on it that perhaps if you didn't have your current position, you might find yourself out in the cold.

      it stole the name and reputation of an existing language

      You mean how Larry Wall stole it from Larry Wall?

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