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Re: has been restarted

by 1nickt (Monsignor)
on Jan 22, 2018 at 00:16 UTC ( #1207645=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to has been restarted

I looked at the site when this announcement was posted. Noted that it's owned by The Perl Foundation, which is the promoter of "Perl6", and that the redesigned site made mention of planning content about both languages. Decided to hold my peace at the time, but concluded that it would prove to be mostly a TPF/P6 coup.

Didn't take long.

See this article there, in which one of the TPF committee members proposes a couple of new strategies for how "P6" can better suck the life out of Perl, errrr, sorry, "how the Perl 5 to P6 'migration' can be accelerated" ... and the Reddit discussion that followed, with comments from many of today's most active CPAN authors.

The way forward always starts with a minimal test.

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Re^2: has been restarted
by liz (Monsignor) on Jan 29, 2018 at 11:45 UTC
    The Perl Foundation is dedicated to the advancement of the Perl programming language through open discussion, collaboration, design, and code. It coordinates the efforts of numerous grass-roots Perl-based groups, including: International Yet Another Perl Conferences; Carries the legal responsibility for Perl 5 and Perl 6;; Perl Mongers; PerlMonks.
    Saying that TPF is the promoter of "Perl6" appears to be untrue, in that it e.g. also is responsible for PerlMonks, which I could hardly describe as "promoting Perl6"

      That is incredibly disingenuous, Liz. As you know better than most other people, The Perl Foundation spends money to sponsor technical conferences under the "Perl6" name, using the butterfly logo as the sponsor logo, and has tables at them with "P6" banners and other paraphernalia.

      It's notable that the TPF blurb you cited makes no mention of the fact that Perl 5 and "P6" are separate languages, "sisters in the same family", etc., even though this is the apparently official position as published on But it's not surprising, given that your own thoughts on the matter are public record (2018-01-17):

      19:41 lizmat: I would like to go on record that I have never bought in +to the sister language argument 19:42 I think it was a necessary evil at the time 19:42 and I think it is time to get rid of that necessary evil
      Necessary evil for what, Liz? For maintaining the pretense that "P6" was not in fact intended to displace Perl? If you mean something else, please clarify.

      As for your other absurd assertion: to say that because TPF is the legal umbrella for PerlMonks, and because PM does not (in your assertion) promote "P6", therefore TPF cannot be promoting "P6", is not only a complete syllogism, it flies in the face of the fact that PerlMonks (against the wishes of some of its members) does carry "P6" promotional announcements, often front-paging them.

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
        Oh, and an afterthought... Liz and I love Perl. We love both Perl 5 and Perl 6. You don't have to believe it. Let me illustrate why you'd better believe that we do.

        You mentioned this: "and has tables at them with "P6" banners and other paraphernalia."

        You really don't know who is behind that table each time? That's me, and sometimes Liz too. Because Liz and I are generous sponsors to those conferences, we get a table, where we put our Perl-swag. That swag includes Perl 6-banners and other Perl 6-paraphernalia. But if you take a closer look, you will see that there's more Perl 5-swag than Perl 6-swag. More different books about Perl 5 than about Perl 6 (even though that is slowly changing, because the past 13 months 7 Perl 6 books were published, and only one Perl 5 book). There are more stickers about Perl 5 than about Perl 6 on that table. More buttons about Perl 5 than about Perl 6. More tuits about Perl 5 than about Perl 6. Three different little stuffed toy Camels, and only one type of stuffed toy Camelia butterfly. And yes, there's also several bottles of Perl 6 wine (really, excellent tasty Moesel wine from the city of Perl), and no Perl 5 wine. So: Perl 5 has the upper hand in books, stickers, buttons, tuits, and toys, while Perl 6 has the upper hand in wine.

        Oh, and for your information, all that stuff is paid for by Liz and me. We give away the stickers, buttons, and tuits for free (and we paid for them). TPF has nothing to do with that. The books are bought by me, and sold at cost price, and if I make a profit on it, I destroy that profit by occasionally giving away books to poor students, or to a professor or teacher who asks what to use best to teach Perl to his/her class. The wine was made especially for us, and paid by us, by a very good vinyard in Perl. The camels come from Dubai, and are paid for by Liz and me. The Camelia butterfly stuffed toy cost me 11 months to make, and had me deal intensively with a designer company in Hollywood, and with a factory in China, and Liz and I paid for all of that, and we had 1,000 copies made, and since we got them in july 2016, we sold (or gave away) 330 of those by now.

        Gasp... we give away a lot of stuff, indeed, because we love Perl, and we made a lot of money thanks to Perl, and we give back to Perl.

        The past 17 years, Liz and I have supported Perl 5 and Perl 6 in many ways. I guess that is one of the reasons we were awarded at some point, and that made us blush (yeah, I am using it, now not so humbly, to make a point). You probably don't know that we sponsored the making of Perl 5.10 at the time. So please stop saying that we dislike Perl 5, or that we want to destroy it, because that is a big untruth. Indeed, we like Perl 6 to florish, and we like it to become possible that Perl 5 code runs inside Perl 6 in such a way that Perl 5 can live on forever, and that way of thinking might conflict with your opinions. But saying that we want to destroy Perl 5, is quite beside the truth.

        Kind regards,


        The Perl Foundation does NOT spend money to sponsor technical conferences under the "Perl6" name. Indeed, several conferences, workshops and hackathons show the butterfly logo as a sponsor logo, but there's something that the organisers know that you don't know, and I am telling you now. That is because Liz and I sponsor those conferences, and we requested that instead of our own company's logo, the butterfly logo is used, and the name "The Perl 6 Community" sometimes appears too. TPF has nothing to do with that. This is our way to sponsor these conferences, which are not just Perl 6 but mostly Perl 5 (and we are quite happy with that anyway, really). Please inform yourself the next time before you accuse TPF of this horrible act of evil. Next time, you can accuse me of defiling the pages of conferences. :-)
        That is incredibly disingenuous…

        WAT? Disingenuous? You said that had been taken over by a TPF/P6 coup on the basis of a single article, a single article, calling for unity and commerce between 5 and 6 to the benefit of each posted by one of the more important contributors in modern Perl 5. Incredible indeed. :|

        This sort of poisonous rhetoric doesn't shine a good light on PM. In fact, I think it tangibly damages the Perl community. I was going to ignore your post but I have seen it a couple of times now when looking at other responses, and every time I see it I dislike it even more.

        If you don't like Perl 6 nobody is going to make you use it. I don't buy the "it's killing Perl 5" argument in the slightest. I strongly doubt that Perl 5 would be any more popular in 2018 with or without P6. The languages were designed by Larry Wall, who is entitled to progress the development of his creations in any way that he deems fit. Please stop hating on other members of the Perl community. It's a rotten way to behave.
Re^2: has been restarted
by virtualsue (Vicar) on Jan 29, 2018 at 22:06 UTC

    I didn't agree with substantial parts of Liz's blog posting, though she is of course perfectly entitled to her own opinions, and it might interest you to learn that neither did the main developer of Perl 6, Jonathan Worthington.

    Of sisters, stacks and CPAN

    I've always been quite happy with the evolved narrative of sisterhood vis Perl 5 and 6. I do a significant amount of Perl 5 work yet I find Perl 6 very interesting and I hope it continues to catch on. There are many signs that this is happening. As far as I can see, this is all good. It's not a zero sum game. The success of Perl 5 does not diminish Perl 6 and vice versa.

Re^2: has been restarted
by Anonymous Monk on Feb 05, 2018 at 16:52 UTC
    As a Perl programmer and devout advocate since 1993, I gotta add my opinion here: 15 years ago the idea Perl 6 might of been a great idea, but IMO these days fundamentally changing the language structure isnt the way to go. Doing things like changing how you reference an array element from '$' to '@' only serves to alienate the dwindling base of Perl programmers that still exist. And quite frankly stuff like 'the sigil matches the type of end variable you are working with' is what *makes* Perl Perl!! :) IMO TO FIX: Ditch Perl 6, take the best features that dont alter Perl 5 syntax, and incorporate them into Perl 7. Case in point: The English language has alot of illogic and inconsistency, but noone in their right mind would start a campaign to try and 'fix it'. Not trying to start a flame war. I sincerely care about the future of the language and think that embracing the Perl 5 syntax is the way to go here.

      I actually agree with you about sigils matching the type of the variable. Many folks have expressed confusion and dismay over it throughout the life of Perl but to me it was always absolutely logical and sensible as grammar. That said, you and I are in the minority and people have actually attempted to fix or simplify English over the years, including Ben Franklin's ludicrous spelling reform attempt. Perl 5 isn't going away soon and if it can continue to attract talented core devs it might never. The Perl 6 ship has sailed and fighting against it or trying to call it back to port hurts Perl 5, as already mentioned in this thread.

      If you care about Perl 5, put your efforts and energies there. The lack of apps has more to do with its usage spiral than any competition ever did. A single person, like Sri, MST, or Miyagawa, can stem the tide with a single good idea. Working will always beat complaining.

      Update: cleaned up a couple words/commas that were bugging me.

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