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Throw your money at tye!

by Aristotle (Chancellor)
on Mar 13, 2003 at 19:39 UTC ( #242804=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

Isn't there any interest in the tye fund? My offer still stands. castaway and PodMaster had offered money in that thread. Why has nothing happened yet? Did people merely forget or is there really no interest? I'd offer to organize this, but I have neither the contacts nor experience to do so - nevertheless, if that's what it takes, I'll look into what I can do.

Whoever is with me, give me an 'aye' - well?

Makeshifts last the longest.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Anonymous Monk on Mar 13, 2003 at 22:42 UTC

    Hi. I'm sure tye has done some excellent work and I swear I don't mean this as a troll but the Perlmonks additions to the everything engine are not publically available, correct? The only reason I can think of for this is that Perlmonks is relying on the obscurity as part of their security.

    So this begs a few questions:

    • Why would I contribute money to encourage a website to trust in obscurity? and
    • Why would I contribute money for proprietary changes that would only be given to this website, not made freely available. Sub-question: why wouldn't I just contribute to the everything engine?

    Once again, I don't mean it as a troll. I just couldn't possibly find the justification to contribute based on those points, especially when there are many actual open-source projects that could use the help, and thousands could benefit from the code written, rather than just one website.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

      Yes, the PM source is not public because (in large part) we haven't done a full security audit so obscurity1 has great value for now. But it is available to lots of Everything developers. They are free to take any bits that they want and I sometimes point out bits that I think they should take. We also get bits from them (especially from jaybonci) and are thankful for them.

      If the node cache gets rewritten, that would certainly be an important thing to try to get wedged into standard Everything so I think that would happen and I would help to make it happen. (And we haven't changed the node cache so I think it would also be very easy to do.)

      I personally haven't merged anything into Everything so far. In part because I think PerlMonks and Everything are going in different directions on some things. Some have expressed interest in merging them, but I honestly don't see that as practical based on attempts and discussions I've seen so far. I'm certainly not opposed to it, in principle.

      As for contributing, others have addressed that. I'm not overly comfortable with my joke coming to life, but I'm not fighting because I honestly appreciate the generosity expressed and I think it could end up giving the site (and probably other Everything sites) a whole lot more room in the resources department and benefit me as well (I'd enjoy the work; I wouldn't be buying toys or such, I'd be "buying" time from others).

      Certainly, if you don't feel completely comfortable about the idea, then I very much don't want you contributing (if "the fund" actually happens).

                      - tye

      1Yes, I understand about "security through obscurity". Let me quote myself from about a year ago in a non-public forum:

      I was hoping to post a reply to the latest call for free-for-all access to the PM source. [ but didn't find the time ]


      security by obscurity is no security at all.
      I understand the point of that old saw, but it isn't actually true. A great deal of security is obscurity. If I were designing a new system, then I'd certainly open the design to public review rather than keep the design secret. That is quite a bit different than having a live system that has had several security problems found (and fixed) in the last few months.

      Opening up free access to the source could certainly increase the rate at which any remaining security problems are found. However, there wouldn't be a team looking specifically for security problems so the ones found would most likely be by people doing the looking for "bad" reasons and so we might not even get the security problems fixed if they are exploited subtley enough.

      [*Mumble*] couldn't have guessed how to munge things without access to the source. I'll take a layer of obscurity until such time as a good security review of the site has been completed.

      The other problem is wasted time. If we start getting patches from random [people] who think they are helping but don't have a solid clue, then we just make the resource problem worse. I've personally lobbied and gotten two gods added specifically to help get the good patches that you guys have already provided but us deadbeats haven't applied. One had "real life" get in the way for several months and the other switched to working on site documentation so there are still probably half-a-dozen patches that should be applied but haven't been. [ I think things have improved since then ]

      So I think the best plan for "getting help" is to continue to add people who meet the requirements of 1) trust and 2) competence to pmdev if they show an interest in contributing. [....]

      If random people want to tackle what I consider the #1 problem, the node cache, then they can download 0.8 as I don't think there are any PM-specific changes to that part of the code.

      That is a little out of context, not exactly on topic, and perhaps worded a little more bluntly than I would normally do in a public node, but I'd wanted to state basically that in public so I'm glad for this opportunity.
      The Perlmonks code is not hidden. I have access to it, and all I did was ask politely. However, it is not sitting on a shelf all tied up with a big red bow either. It lives in the Perlmonks database, so fetching it is something of a task and I don't believe it has been automated. Right now you have to visit all the different node types and download the source.

      In short, any apparent hiding of the Perlmonks code is due to the work it would take to make it conveniently available, not to any attempts at making it proprietary.

        any apparent hiding of the Perlmonks code is due to the work it would take to make it conveniently available, not to any attempts at making it proprietary.

        There are so many things wrong with that I don't know where to start, so I won't. I'll just merrily on my way and wish this site's management the best.

      Perhaps if you were here as a non-anonymous user, you could politely ask to be a member of the group known as pmdev. For one, they have access to nearly (I believe it is not _everything_, but quite close enough) all of the code that makes up PerlMonks. And as a big bonus (okay I lie: it's the point of the group in the first place), pmdevils get to submit what we call 'patches'. Essentially, pmdev members get to make modifications to the PerlMonks code, upon approval by one of the great powers known as the gods :) (this covers your "why wouldn't I just contribute to the everything engine" question).

      As I understand it, more active members of pmdev would be greatly appreciated. There is much work to be done, and the more people willing to help out, the better. But your chances of entering the pmdev group are probably pretty low unless you let it be known who you are and why you want to join the group and what contributions you could make.

      If the above content is missing any vital points or you feel that any of the information is misleading, incorrect or irrelevant, please feel free to downvote the post. At the same time, please reply to this node or /msg me to inform me as to what is wrong with the post, so that I may update the node to the best of my ability.

      Why would I contribute money for proprietary changes that would only be given to this website, not made freely available.

      My best guess would be that you would contribute money because whilst they only will benefit this website, you'd get it back from the help you receive here.

      Sub-question: why wouldn't I just contribute to the everything engine?

      Because the everything engine doesn't magically answer your Perl questions, whereas perlmonks seems to do just that.

      Even if parts of the perlmonks code are not publically available that doesn't mean it is for security reasons.

      Perhaps someone can answer the question why these parts aren't available so we don't have to guess/assume.
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Mr. Muskrat (Canon) on Mar 13, 2003 at 19:47 UTC

    Mr. Muskrat gives Aristotle an eye.

    I'm not sure how much I can give but I'm willing to donate a minimum of $10. It's a small enough amount that I can sweet talk it away from my wife. I will of course try for more. ;-)

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by valdez (Monsignor) on Mar 13, 2003 at 20:12 UTC

    I like your proposal and will donate money for the group of people working on the code of the Monastery. Ciao, Valerio

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Tanalis (Curate) on Mar 13, 2003 at 21:56 UTC
    Assuming you people can wait until after pay-day, I'll put some Swiss Francs into the pot, just to counterbalance all the euros and Dollars *grin* .. it'd certainly be worth the money in the long (and hopefully the short) term :)

    -- Foxcub
    A friend is someone who can see straight through you, yet still enjoy the view. (Anon)

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Limbic~Region (Chancellor) on Mar 14, 2003 at 00:18 UTC
    Tell me when and where - I have a check for a $100 USD waiting to be mailed.
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Jaap (Curate) on Mar 13, 2003 at 22:02 UTC
    I'm in for a couple of deca€ too. But the main question is probably how to set it up. I propose a paypal account for tye (guess he'll have to set it up himself).

    We'd have to plug it a little on the frontpage or something too (perhaps next to the donations... text)
      Shouldn't this sort of thing be done through YAS, which is after all, Perl Monks' parent company. If this could be done, it would also have the advantage of making the donations tax deductible.
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Jaap (Curate) on Mar 13, 2003 at 22:11 UTC
    Oh two questions:

    Perhaps tye can give us an rough estimate on how long he'd like to work on perlmonks/node_cache/everything_engine. The unit could be hours or dollars/euros.

    Can anyone point me to a thread where it is explained why we cannot upgrade to a newer version of the everything engine?
      The problem is that Perlmonks does not run on the stock Everything engine. The code is heavilly modified. Upgrading to a newer version of Everything would mean porting those modificatons to it as well.

        The newer Everything engine is also slower. So that wouldn't be a great trade-off. There is much talk/work about making it faster, but, as I understand things, it is still likely to be slower than what we are using (and, AFAIK, its node cache is still broken in the same ways).

                        - tye
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Mar 14, 2003 at 06:16 UTC
    Ok, so there's more than enough interest it seems. Now how do we go about it? Paypal is not an option for various reasons (I'll elaborate if anyone cares). Any direction I could look in? tye?

    Makeshifts last the longest.

      I would be interested in why you wouldn't use Paypal.

        PayPal makes no guarantee at all for even a penny of the money deposited on an account, and reserves the right to freeze the account for any reason, at their own discretion. If that does happen (and you have no control over whether it might because a transaction from anyone f.ex via a stolen credit card to your account suffices to taint you regardless of your track record), then you are at their mercy to decide whether or not they will give you your money, without granting you any rights to be informed of the grounds on which the decision was taken. (Note that frozen accounts can still receive money their owner won't be able to withdraw.)

        If you want more information about the whole ugly mess, try and

        Makeshifts last the longest.

        IMO PayPal sucks for those of us not in the US (lots). Add that to the well discussed negative aspects of it and I think its easy to conclude a better mechanism should be used.


        <Elian> And I do take a kind of perverse pleasure in having an OO assembly language...

      Perhaps ecount could be used...

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by data64 (Chaplain) on Mar 13, 2003 at 22:57 UTC

    I am willing to put in some candian dollars as well.

    I will not do it through the paypal, though. The last I checked, they charged extra fees if you were outside US.

    Just a tongue-tied, twisted, earth-bound misfit. -- Pink Floyd

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by phydeauxarff (Priest) on Mar 14, 2003 at 13:30 UTC
    Sounds like a PBS pledge drive ;-)....well if Limbic~Region can do a $100, I can as well.

    I have benefitted greatly from this has given an old dog the opportunity to begin learning a new trick...PERL.
    If there is anything I can do to make sure this continues not only for my own edification, but to make sure others can have the same opporunity that I have...then count me in.

    Perhaps someone knows an attorney who could assist with setting up Perlmonks as a not-for-profit organization?
    This would allow for funds to be made available to support the site for development and management but also provide Pair, and perhaps other companies, the ability to write off their donation of services.

      not-for-profit organization... funds to be made available... write off their donation of services

      That sounds like an excellent idea! Isn't there already an associaton with Yet Another Society that could be used?

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by blaze (Friar) on Mar 14, 2003 at 02:43 UTC
    ok...can someone tell me where to send my money already, i cant be as generous as Limbic over there, but then again im just a college student, all i have is my beer money to give :)....tell me where to send it, and i will
Re: Throw your money at tye! (negotiations)
by tye (Sage) on Mar 20, 2003 at 18:18 UTC
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by DarknessX (Scribe) on Mar 14, 2003 at 11:56 UTC
    I'm a mere highschool student, so I can't be as generous as limbic either, but I have some cash I can give away for such a worthy cause.
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Jaap (Curate) on Mar 14, 2003 at 21:17 UTC
    I guess it's time for tye to contact YAS so we can make the donations to them (tax-deductible).

    Simply state that all the donations above the average go to tye this month. Good idea?
      I asked tye to comment on this, but obviously he hasn't yet..

      Makeshifts last the longest.

        I have previously contributed anonymously to YAS. My offer of $100 was meant to be directly used to PM development and specifically tye and/or any monk that was making a real difference at the expense of personal time and/or profit. If my second donation can be changed from a gift to a worthy cause to tax deductible - I will raise my original $100 to $50/month for one year.

        Cheers - L~R

Re: Throw your money at tye!
by davis (Vicar) on Mar 14, 2003 at 13:47 UTC
    Good idea. I'm in for the tune of 64 USD.
    Is this going out live?
    No, Homer, very few cartoons are broadcast live - it's a terrible strain on the animator's wrist
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by Pug (Monk) on Mar 14, 2003 at 15:38 UTC
    I am able and willing to write a $100 USD Check also. I just need to know where to send it.
    Update: donated $100 USD to the Perl Monks Fund. (3/31/2003)
Re: Throw your money at tye!
by blahblah (Friar) on Mar 20, 2003 at 08:26 UTC
    I would love to put my money here. Absolutely the best perl site hands down. Generously helpful on a consistent basis with maturity and grace. Minimal flame wars. Tye rocks. $50.
    $20/mo for a year if its tax deductable.
    msg me info where to send the bucks when that gets figured out since I have a feeling this thread is going to become quite long to follow...

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