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Why down vote is soo easy?!

by gmpassos (Priest)
on Jan 25, 2004 at 00:21 UTC ( #323895=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

Recently seems that down vote a node becomes more and more common. Seems that is much more easy to say, hummm, this is not good enough, and vote --.

Well, I'm one of the monks that think that just a reply is good enough, that just know that the other monk spent some time in the problem is good enough.

Actually I only vote when I think that the node is really interesting, and I only make down vote when I see some flame node, some one that forgot the spirit of the monastery. I don't spent my time voting and voting just to win some XP, I prefer to write something.

The worst thing is that seems that if you down vote, you also can win XP, and some peoples only make the --.

Soo, where's the spirit of help, the spirit of who want's to share knowledge. I think that some monks need to know that is not in any place that we can find knowledge for free, actually in most place we need to pay a lot for any knowledge. PerlMonks is a great, greate and grate place to get, share and create knowledge about Perl.

I know that we have a lot of good monks, but somes are around the monastery just taking care about XP, -- & ++.

For me XP can be banned from the monastery, or some new policy need to be created. Like remove the winning of XP on --, and a list of the monks that doesn't do the right thing, since the impunity of no one know what you do is creating a problem and is contributing to make PerlMonks less that what it really is.

Graciliano M. P.
"Creativity is the expression of the liberty".

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Coruscate (Sexton) on Jan 25, 2004 at 05:24 UTC

    There is a time in every monk's life when he or she sits down and says "Why does the XP system work as it does?". Because it's human nature, that's why. I don't have the right to question other monks' votes on my nodes, just as nobody else has the right to question the way in which I vote personally. As long as a monk doesn't downvote with 90%+ of their votes, then their decisions are their own. It's why we have ++/-- votes, not a system where every upvote and downvote requires approval by 5 other monks in order to be effective. I am of the opinion that downvotes should be used sparingly, but then again, whose business, other than my own, is that information?

    In short, I also questioned the XP system once. Back when I read a little too much into the voting system. I have since then learned that the XP system is flawed in that it takes into account human interaction. If you let a human being decide how to grade something, each person is going to react in a completely different manner.

    In super short, just don't worry about it. It's not as important as it may first seem. What can I say, life sucks :)

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by neuroball (Pilgrim) on Jan 25, 2004 at 04:01 UTC

    Why is down voting so easy?

    Because it should be! It should be as easy as voting up.

    I don't think a special 'system' should be put into place that makes it harder to vote up or down.

    If you would like to add constructive critizism you might want to read tye's recent node about xp and voting and post your comment there.

    /oliver/

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Anonymous Monk on Jan 25, 2004 at 06:11 UTC
    Recently seems that down vote a node becomes more and more common.

    Recently it seems worthless posts are becoming more common. Perhaps that is a correlation worth considering.

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by revdiablo (Prior) on Jan 25, 2004 at 04:02 UTC

    I must say I agree with you in your reasoning for downvoting. It should be saved for extreme cases. I don't know if I should push that view onto other Monks, but that's another matter.

    In any case, there was a recent discussion (Possible changes to Voting/XP) that might be relevent. It seems like the gods are trying to tweak things a bit to avoid these "joy-downvotes" that you're mentioning. Hopefully the desired effects will be achieved. 8^)

      I must say I agree with you in your reasoning for downvoting. It should be saved for extreme cases.

      Then why isn't upvoting only saved for extreme circumstances? Why should medicore nodes get a positive rating?

        I do not vote either way on mediocre nodes, I just ignore them. Basically that gives me three values ++, , and --. Or, good enough to deserve mention, bad enough to deserve mention, and ignored.

        ----
        I Go Back to Sleep, Now.

        OGB

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by CountZero (Bishop) on Jan 25, 2004 at 21:53 UTC
    Recently seems that down vote a node becomes more and more common.

    Is it really? Does anyone have any statistics to back that up? At least I don't have that feeling. I do see that recently more Monks have written comments on what they perceive to be an apparent loss of community spirit.

    Hey, rather than complaining about it, do something positive: write a review, a meditation or help a newbee!

    CountZero

    "If you have four groups working on a compiler, you'll get a 4-pass compiler." - Conway's Law

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by xenchu (Friar) on Jan 25, 2004 at 23:50 UTC

    XP is a game. If you take it too seriously you only hurt yourself. When I am downvoted and get an 'Ack' message I am slightly unhappy. I tend to think 'What did I do?' But except for a slight ego-stroke what difference does it make? Does anyone put 'I am an Abbott on PM' on their resume?

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am here to learn Perl, not gain XP status. I do not say no one should enjoy their XP status or not be happy to make a higher rank, but get a grip. Do you get a secret decoder ring for making Saint? Or do you get real benefits from knowing Perl?

    xenchu


    The Needs of the World and my Talents run parallel to infinity.
Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Abigail-II (Bishop) on Jan 26, 2004 at 00:31 UTC
    I think voting should be symmetrical. -- voting have the same rewards/barriers as ++ votes. Due to the social pressure of preferring ++ votes over -- votes, the entire node reputation system is meaningless.

    Let me make a bold proposal. To counterbalance the social pressure, making ++ votes should come with a price. Like losing a positive number of XP. Or a rule that your number of ++ votes/day could never be more than twice the number of -- votes, and the other way around as well (with the obvious exception of your first vote).

    Abigail

      Due to social pressures to not act like a complete jerk, compliments are preferred to insults. It has made compliments completely meaningless. Now, when someone gives me a compliment, I know that it is only because they feel unfair pressure to not yell insults at me (the possibility that they could do neither is simply unimaginable, which is why every single person I get near all day throws meaningless compliments at me).

      The world would be much better if we were required to insult at least as many people as we compliment...

      ...then the world would be more like... Usenet!

      - tye        

      "Let me make a bold proposal. To counterbalance the social pressure, making ++ votes should come with a price. Like losing a positive number of XP. Or a rule that your number of ++ votes/day could never be more than twice the number of -- votes, and the other way around as well (with the obvious exception of your first vote). "

      So you'd penalize those making supportive votes on the assumption that they are only being made as a courtesy rather than out of a desire to throw support behind a particular point of view without cluttering the site with a needless "ditto" post? This seems a bit presumptive as to the intent of voters. I personally don't have the gift of reading minds and would never presume to make that kind of judgement...

      Likewise, forcing ++ votes to exceed -- votes assumes that there is less merit in identifying posts that lack worthwhile content, or even contain offensive content, than there is in throwing support behind meritorious posts. If that were true then why do we bother with a Node Reaper? -- votes are a way for the community to identify nodes that deserve his attention.

      The xp system is not broken. Let it be what it is.

      Acolyte
      Studying at the feet of the masters
Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by dont_you (Hermit) on Jan 30, 2004 at 03:49 UTC

    The worst thing is that seems that if you down vote, you also can win XP, and some peoples only make the --.

    When younger, I kicked trash cans with my friends. Then I grow.
    At least you can broke anything here in PM. Even the rank of every post is a bit useless as content valuation, as you can't see it until you vote... and is not necessary (till now). Try to post an incorrect answer, and surely you'll get a reply noting your mistake. Or be agressive, and someone will reproach you. The real value of PM are the quality of it's threads, not it's posts. Every post (generally) has little value out of context.
    I'll be more worried if we start to see a lot of offensive posts (or worst, offensive threads), other than offensive XP usage. And if it happens, well... tye will do something ;-)

    I know that we have a lot of good monks, but somes are around the monastery just taking care about XP, -- & ++.

    Has been said, XP is a game. Don't worry, it's not important. And those who need XP to raise his ego, well, mail me, I'll upvote you. Or better! post explaining that you need XP, and we all generously will give you a lot of ++!!!.

    Recently it seems worthless posts are becoming more common

    Maybe... Looks like a cyclic thing... when everyone are talking about changing the recursion limit using B::Complex, someone ask how to make a form button using CGI. But It's not a bad thing... without childrens, we all will become a bunch of geeky bad-tempered old men.

    Seems like we need fresh blood right now...

    Josť

Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Acolyte (Hermit) on Jan 30, 2004 at 22:02 UTC

    "Well, I'm one of the monks that think that just a reply is good enough, that just know that the other monk spent some time in the problem is good enough."

    Sure, replies are great, but there are times when someone has already made the point that I would have made. At those times I like to throw my support behind their comment by adding my vote. If enough people also happen to agree that the post has merit it will get even more exposure through the "Daily Best" box.

    Despite what you may feel, the XP system is not broken and it serves a legitimate purpose.

    Acolyte
    Studying at the feet of the masters
Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Bismark (Scribe) on Feb 05, 2004 at 18:55 UTC
    I have to admit that I really do not see why people have any conversations about XP. I have voted twice in the last 6 or 7 months. I use my vote for nodes that are useful or answer questions in a way where everyone can benefit. I am not even sure why I vote at all. Maybe, I want to see certain nodes gain notice since they are so useful. Do not really know. I did not start coming to the Monastery for points, I came for learning. Not even sure why I responded to this one. Oh well...
    Kerry
    "Yet what are all such gaieties to me
    Whose thoughts are full of indices and surds?"
    quotes the Lama
Why ask why?
by Anonymous Monk on Jan 25, 2004 at 01:34 UTC
    Why ask why? The answer is the same.
Re: Why down vote is soo easy?!
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Mar 15, 2004 at 10:20 UTC

    While the XP system is flaky and allows few conclusions on a case-by-case basis, it does allow factual statements about trends.

    If the trend you observe is that your nodes are getting downvoted, it means a large variety of people disagree with your way of going about things. (In personal grudges, the number of votes rarely suffices to constitute a trend.) You might want to at least take a moment to consider this.

    I have downvoted several of your nodes for reasons much like those for which I downvoted this one: there are (at least sometimes) well thought out reasons for things you don't want to accept, but too often you just dash off without taking even a moment to research prior art or discussion and consider its merits. Had you taken the time to Super Search and read, you would have noticed that all of the points you bring up in this node have been brought up a nauseating amount of times and been answered in tiring depth just as often.

    The fact that you took the time to start a PM Discussion and complain about people's voting habits at length doesn't particularly support your claim that XP could as well be removed as far as you're concerned, either.

    Makeshifts last the longest.

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