Re: Fearing the demise of Perl

[Wassercrats]

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[chromatic]

the kind of people who make up the Perl community

People who have decades of experience programming?

People who've written perl itself?

People who've given countless advice to hundreds of people for free for years?

People who've written millions of lines of code to solve problems, big and small, and give it away?

People who help fund Perl Monks, YAPCs, and TPF sponsored projects?

If you're butting heads with those kinds of people, and if they all say "Hmm, I think your approach needs some improvements", and if they tell you their reasonings, and if their reasonings include personal experiences over years, it's worth considering the possibility that they're all right.

Please don't misunderstand me. There's a possibility that you're a genius and you see something none of the experts see. That happens sometimes. I'm inclined to go with the experts, though. They have a history behind them.

[halley]

In discussions like this one, I am often reminded of the Dysfunction demotivator: http://www.despair.com/demotivators/dysfunction.html

[bmcatt]

Well, to take a different tack from the direction that I suspect most others will be taking... I'd like to take exception to your comment that you have "already wasted too much time learning... Perl". I believe that every programming language / structure / whatever is worth learning. Not only for the ability to pad your resume [:-) implied], but because there _are_ valid cross-polination results.

My primary development languages these days are Perl, C/C++ and Java. I don't program exclusively in any of them. I pick the right tool for the right job. And, at the same time, I can honestly say that learning each of them helps me to do a better job in the others.

Back when I was in college, most of the CS students were making sure they took COBOL classes because that was the way to guarantee you got a job. [Yes, it was that long ago...] I studiously avoided "officially" taking COBOL. "Real programmers don't use sissy-fied langauges", after all. That didn't stop me from studying it on my own time, though, because it enabled me to help other students who were having problems with their programs. It also gave me a better appreciation for what they were suffering through. If nothing else, learning COBOL let me understand what a horrible language it was. :-)

Perhaps that's the way you want to treat your knowledge of Perl and the time you've spent learning it. If so, however, please don't denigrate those of us who use the language and enjoy what it allows us to do.

[QM]

...I will be promoting other technologies over Perl at every opportunity because of my recently gained knowledge of the kind of people who make up the Perl community, ...

While this community has its own characteristics, to a great extent it's also a mirror to the individuals who interact with it. The face of the community has as much to do with the face of the individual approaching it as with its own intrinsic nature.

Generally, those who bring thoughtfulness are rewarded with knowledge and wisdom. Similarly, humility with respect, brilliance with awe (and fervent notetaking ;), and reflection with contemplation.

The mirror doesn't generate the image.

Willow tree's shadow
Spreading over still blue water -
Which contains the dark?

[Steve_p]

No it isn't, but it usually should be a consideration, and it should be a major consideration when you decide what community you should support, what programming language to add to a school curriculum, and what language should be used by programmers you hire.

In fact, all of these reasons are poor reasons for choosing a language. If you look at the top U.S. schools in Computer Science, you'll find Scheme and Lisp as one of the first languages taught, even though, as shown above, popularity exceptionally low. Why would they teach such unpopular languages? Because they believe that teaching good programming skills are more important than teaching specific languages.

As far as what community you support, that should have very little to do with the popularity. You should support whatever community you feel comfortable with whether its Perl or Scheme or COBOL. If popularity was the only factor, JavaJunkies would have three times the posts of this site. That is certainly not the case.

Finally, judging programmers by the languanges they know and not by the skills they bring to the table is a recipe for disaster. For example, I am working on a project that included a Java programming component. Three programmers were working on it. Two were marginal programmers with experience in Java. The other was an exceptional programmer C programmer with real-time programming experience, but no Java experience. Most of you know can guess the result, but the former C programmer easily outcoded the other two. Although he took some extra time early lerning the language, his skills quickly made up for it as his code was not only better thought out, it was been tested and designed. In the end, he was actually teaching the other two about several features in the Java libraries that the two knew nothing about, and greatly tightened up their code as well.

For most experienced programmers, learning (most) new languages is as easy as changing your socks. Learning to program well, however, takes a great deal of time, aptitude, and desire. Its very humbling as well. It means admitting mistakes. At times means asking dumb questions. It means learning from your mistakes.

Good programmers, however, rarely have to worry about work. Work usually finds them. Some choose to work in just one language, although some don't care what language they work in as long as the work fills their needs. Do I worry that Perl work will stop coming to me? No, Perl work continues to find me, and it will as long as I want it to.

[thor]

most of you (at least the ones who have gone public) have driven me to charge for a debugging tool that every Perl programmer would otherwise use, rather than make it a module or freeware. ...

it's always important to let others decide what's good for you.

No it isn't...

So, what you're saying is "I march to the beat of my own drummer" and "the Perl community forced me to do something against my wishes". I'd be interested to know what a bunch of people that you've probably never met did to "force" you to charge for something that you want to give away.

[Shinwa]

"....but I will be promoting other technologies over Perl at every opportunity because of my recently gained knowledge of the kind of people who make up the Perl community, as well as for more technical reasons..."


I myself havn't coded for overly long in Perl, but even I am insulted by that. I've coded in numerous other languages, but have found those of this community to be the most helpful and supportive of any other. As well I strongly doubt you have spoken to every person in enough depth to actally make a truely un-biased decision on if we are good people or not.

[jonnyfolk]

Are you still here?

[particle]

Are you still here?

that is just plain rude. johnnyfolk--