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Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more

by princepawn (Parson)
on Nov 26, 2000 at 19:08 UTC ( #43370=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

I can't say I am happy about everything that goes on here, but I resolve to address these issues in a more civil fashion.

Also, I will attempt to provide my criticisms of Perl in a more friendly way.

But I must say, being princepawn has been a keen insight into human nature, particularly how certain people will attack you blindly and hatefully after awhile even if you are correct.

Proof of my ability to "go with the flow" is the fact that my alter-ego, metaperl has made it all the way to nearly Level 4 with no downvotes.

  • Comment on Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more

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Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by footpad (Monsignor) on Nov 27, 2000 at 20:58 UTC

    May I humbly suggest that you take a few moments to reflect on what you want out of this site and your participation in it?

    You appear to know Perl quite well. The fact that you've published something in TPJ is a good thing. Since you offer consulting services, you clearly have a certain amount of confidence with the language and its idiosyncracies. These are accomplishements to be proud of.

    Unfortunately, you appear to be somewhat, er, agressive when defending your ideas and/or presenting conclusions you've drawn from your observations.

    This is where, I think, you're rubbing people a little raw.

    As nearly everyone's grandmother has said at some point: You'll attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

    If, as you say, you've got a couple of ideas that will help in that regard, I think you'll find progress toward whatever goals you choose for yourself.

    It may help to consider the Monastary as a team of professionals, each offering free advice in their spare moments. I'm not sure what your workload is, but I'm reasonably certain that some folks spend far too much time out here, at the risk of their deadlines. Personally, I call that dedication, something worthy of respect in itself.

    It may also help to review the posts from monks who consistently demonstrate a genuine desire to help others learn perl as well as they do. With no disrespect to anyone not listed in the following, here's a short list of the people I've come to respect over the last several weeks (in no particular order): merlyn, vroom, chromatic, ybiC, tilly, jcwren, Fastolfe, PsychoSpunk, japhy, Ovid, kudra, and several others that I can't recall off the top of my head. Each of these have gone out of their way to share their knowledge and to invest their time into specific problems.

    I believe you'll find these folks rarely make absolute statements or wild claims. Sure, there are noted exceptions, with appropriate reputations on those posts. However, the overall tendency seems to be a spirit of teamwork and a desire to promote the best practices of Perl.

    My point is: There is more than one way to earn accolades, but respect can only be earned through demonstrated commitment to an ideal. It takes a lot of hard work. It also takes the maturity to accept ones limitations and mistakes. We need to learn from what we do poorly and move on. Work with the team toward the goals of the Monastary.

    You're clearly capable of doing the work and you've expressed a willingness to do it. Good.

    Let's move on and see how things progress, okay?


    P.S. I would also suggest you choose a single 'nym and stick with it. Multiple personalities don't appear to be overly popular here. Also, please try to avoid trolling.

      I normally refrain from posting "I agree" and "me too" nodes.

      But (aside from mistaking me as being clueful {grin} ) this is the best example of constructive criticism I've seen in a damian1301's age.   footpad++ for both message and delivery.
          striving for Perl Adept
          (it's pronounced "why-bick")

(Ovid) Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by Ovid (Cardinal) on Nov 26, 2000 at 19:25 UTC
    ...certain people will attack you blindly and hatefully after awhile even if you are correct
    Really? Care to provide examples? I have not seen blind or hateful attacks against you. I have seen many people point out that you fail to understand some basic points about Perl. This, combined with your assumption that this failure is somehow Perl's fault, really annoys some people. Despite this annoyance, Monks have taken the time to answer your questions -- often at length -- and yet you repeatedly seem to "not get it."

    I read your last post and you were complaining about the length function not being intuitive. One point you made was

    it may be best for a trained Perl programmer, but think from the mind of your boss or your secretary or someone else who just wants something simple and fast ...
    Well, duh! Generally, I have not worked in evironments where the secretary is programming. On the other hand, if my boss is programming, I want him or her to know how to cook or stay out of the kitchen. It's non-sensical comments like this which get you downvoted, princepawn, not monks acting out of "blind hatred."

    I also find it interesting that in this node, you respond as metaperl to one of your own posts without cluing people in to who you are and with a reference to a programming language "whose stated intent is to replace Perl." If you don't like Perl, don't use it. It's that simple. There's nothing wrong with not liking Perl, but don't keep coming back to Perl programmers and telling them that there language is broken (unless you're right).


    Join the Perlmonks Setiathome Group or just click on the the link and check out our stats.

Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by cadfael (Friar) on Nov 27, 2000 at 18:45 UTC
    Is this how it really is? That a person can log in under two or more pseudonyms, build up experience in both, and then use the logins to comment on his/her alter ego's posts, and even vote on such posts?

    Maybe I am a little naive, but this suggests to me that the system can be seriously abused. When people use pseudonyms, trust becomes very important. The recent controversy over logging of the chatterbox is a case in point. The use of alternate logins is just as serious, in my opinion.

    "Computeri non cogitant, ergo non sunt"

Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by extremely (Priest) on Nov 27, 2000 at 08:00 UTC
    Ah man, at the height of your bottoming out I almost sent you a recommendation to do just what you did. =) That rocks. You probably should have quit posting as princepawn alogether and just switched to metaperl.

    And while I can see merlyn's point to an extent, you have provided enough service as an agitator that one more agitation shouldn't be enough to condem you as untrustworthy, if anything, your stubborn insistence on staying here is sort of admirable. As long as you don't swing over too far toward the "I told you all so" side. =)

    $you = new YOU;
    honk() if $you->love(perl)

Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by merlyn (Sage) on Nov 26, 2000 at 19:17 UTC
    Ahh,I should have recognized the similarity in styles.

    If you're expecting that people will not build a reputation based on past posts, you are quite naive. I've just reviewed the things you've said as metaperl, and never once did you come to to table without having done your homework or attacking Perl when really it was something you did wrong. Both things which you as princepawn eventually got a reputation for.

    I don't think you could have been metaperl without having also been princepawn for a while. You learned what pushed people's buttons here as princepawn, and you consciously avoided those with metaperl.

    Sure, I could create other_guy that says only uncontroversial things too, and probably would have gotten to saint a bit faster. But I believe that would have been an abuse of the XP system.

    You are using pseudonyms to hide, and for me, that just lost my trust of you. I hope you're happy with that. I feel conned. And I don't like feeling conned. I won't be helping princepawn or metaperl any more. Period. And I would ask others to join me in this stand.

    -- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

      That's your perogative, but I can't agree.

      Neither of us get paid to post here, and it's a hobby for both of us (though it relates strongly to our respective jobs), so I do appreciate the time you've spent here answering questions.

      That said, I don't see anything hostile in princepawn's methods or intents. Posting with a second account is certainly a control operation to see if he's attracted serial downvoters.

      Whatever the case, I'm willing to answer an honest question from anyone, be it a person who doesn't want to seem wishy washy by prefacing every question with the phrase "Maybe I just don't understand things, but here is what I tried and I can't seem to get it to work" to a fat Alaskan electrician who says, "What's wrong with this guestbook from scriptarchive?"

      When people don't put forth a reasonable amount of effort to answer their own questions, or become abusive, defensive, or offensive, then I won't help.

      I think people have the capacity to change and to grow, and I like to give them the opportunity to do so. There's not much written on a web site or on Usenet or in an IRC channel that's worth getting angry about.

      (and the more tricky concepts I explain, the more likely people will realize my untapped brilliance and pay me lots of money to write chromatic's guide to doing cool stuff)

Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by Jonathan (Curate) on Nov 27, 2000 at 14:10 UTC
    In my opinion this site needs a princepawn, someone to always challenge Perl, to hold it up to the light and thereby protect us from mistaking conceit from informed opinion.
    Yes you do attract a ridiculous number of negative votes but so what? Who cares?
    I often ++ your nodes because of the interesting debates they raise.
    Stick with princepawn let metaperl whither on the vine...

    And now, as he looked and saw the whole Hellespont covered with the vessels of his fleet, and all the shore and every plain about Abydos as full as possible of men, Xerxes congratulated himself on his good fortune; but after a little while he wept...
    Asked why he was weeping he replied
    ..."There came upon me," replied he, "a sudden pity, when I thought of the shortness of man's life, and considered that of all this host, so numerous as it is, not one will be alive when a hundred years are gone by."
    The History of Herodotus By Herodotus Written about 440 B.C.
Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by gregorovius (Friar) on Nov 27, 2000 at 12:26 UTC
    I usually upvote Princepawn's postings. Even when he's not right, I always welcome his criticism and his willingness to go against the crowd. Accuracy in content is important, but even when not accurate, posting your ideas is commendable, as this is such an active an open forum where almost no inaccuracy goes through unammended. The inaccurate post has thus the effect of furthering the knowledge of the poster and of those who were also in error and read.

    Inaccuracy of content should not be a reason for downvoting. Maybe not a reason for upvoting; but posting, and doing so after sensible amounts of reasoning, as Princepawn normally does, shouldn't be punished. (The Apparent Inconsistencies thread that he started is probably the most interesting one in the past days.)

    As for tone, I don't care about tone! Stronger opinions make for vivid discussions!

Re: Let us give thanks for princepawn shall whine no more
by royalanjr (Chaplain) on Nov 27, 2000 at 20:40 UTC
    I get a certain sense of unease when someone takes another name on a site like this. It smacks of someone trying to perhaps sidestep things, or something along that line.

    Princepawn is entitled to post what he wills (within reasonable limits) and should accept what he gets (-- or ++). Hiding under another name just rubs the wrong way.

    If Princepawn wants to change the tone of his posts, great. You just do not need to change your name to do that.

    Roy Alan

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