Beefy Boxes and Bandwidth Generously Provided by pair Networks
Perl: the Markov chain saw
 
PerlMonks  

Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?

by zentara (Archbishop)
on Apr 09, 2005 at 18:03 UTC ( #446269=perlquestion: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

zentara has asked for the wisdom of the Perl Monks concerning the following question:

I wanted to try out Perl6/pugs from cpan, and was mildly discouraged by needing the Haskell compiler. It's big and a hassle. I can understand this during the development stage, but are we going to need this when Perl6 is released?

I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth. flash japh
  • Comment on Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by Joost (Canon) on Apr 09, 2005 at 18:10 UTC
Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by gaal (Parson) on Apr 09, 2005 at 18:12 UTC
    No.

    The current plan is use Pugs in the bootstrapping process: once it is complete (or near enough completion), it will be ported to Perl6 and will compile itself. The resulting compiler will be used to recompile the code purely in Perl6.

    There was some discussion about this on #perl6 today and I had to leave just when the "easier to port a shell than a shell script" quote popped up, so there may be interesting news soon. Stay tuned for Apocryphon 2.

Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by Corion (Pope) on Apr 09, 2005 at 18:11 UTC

    Maybe, and I say, maybe, there will be a version of Perl6 that is finally written in Perl6. But I doubt that. More likely in my opinion, Perl6 development will stay for a long time in Haskell, with an ANSI C file compiled from it to jump-start Perl6 on foreign platforms where no Haskell is available.

    With moving from Haskell to Perl6 itself, P6p would give up the huge potential/mindshare/manpower of academical students that develop in Haskell and have fresh research ideas, and also the type safety/type checking of Haskell. On the other hand, having Perl6 written in Perl6 allows the language to be developed much quicker and lowers the barrier of entry that is currently C and later will be Haskell.

      Maybe, and I say, maybe, there will be a version of Perl6 that is finally written in Perl6. But I doubt that.

      Why such doubt? Bootstrapping is common in compilers. GHC does it, for example.

        Inertia and momentum - at least currently, Pugs-on-Haskell has all the momentum, and Perl 6 development has shown a lot of inertia. Of course, maybe some time somebody starts a topaz-like effort to implement Perl6 in itself; and this time, it's much more likely to succeed, as Perl6 has enough power to become self-sustaining (unlike Perl5), and can maybe even have a straight first machine-generated translation from Haskell. But I don't see that this will inevitably succeed, while I see the success of Pugs/Haskell immediately.

Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by eyepopslikeamosquito (Bishop) on Apr 10, 2005 at 04:11 UTC

    I don't feel discouraged about Haskell at all. On the contrary, I welcome having a darned good excuse to learn and play with Haskell because I agree with The Pragmatic Programmers that doing so will make me a better, more well rounded programmer.

    One of the more positive and impressive aspects of the Pugs project is the interplay and learning from each other (ok, and teasing ;-) that goes on constantly at the IRC Channel between the Perl hackers and the Haskell lambda folk. As if to emphasize this duality, autrijus usually signs on with greetings lambdacamels!. A real sense of camaraderie has emerged that I think can only benefit both the Perl and Haskell communities.

    This flurry of Haskell activity may have had some impact on the Perl 6 design team (I heard Larry was playing around with it) -- which can't be a bad thing, given Perl's long history of borrowing good ideas from other languages.

Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Apr 10, 2005 at 01:58 UTC
    My understanding of Pugs (which is from completely outside the popular crowd) is that Pugs was Autrijus's way of playing with the neat toys before Parrot was ready. In doing so, the Pugs team is going ahead and writing a large portion of the P6 tests, which is really helping Larry and the P6Language crowd out a bunch. (About half the P6L questions now are clarifications from the PugsCrew and that percentage is expected to rise for a while.)

    Perl6 is still planned on targeting Parrot as its primary VM, though the Haskell version may have benefits down the road. (I'm not sure what those would be as Haskell should be implementable on Parrot ...)

Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by ambs (Pilgrim) on Apr 09, 2005 at 18:36 UTC
    You will not need Haskell, but Parrot should be required.

    And, by the way, Pugs is not using Parrot at all at the moment, right?

    Alberto Simões

        debian-unstable's ghc is now too old, apparently

        Try ghc-cvs, which I know works because I actually tried it.

Re: Is Haskell always going to be needed for Perl6 compilation?
by Courage (Parson) on Apr 10, 2005 at 09:28 UTC
    when pugs is compiled, Haskell not required at all. I mean "pugs" as executable, both Win32 and Linux, where I had chances to try, do not depend on Haskell.

    However I agree wholeheartedly with an opinion that Autrijus' de-marche on writing Perl6 on Haskell proves that HASKELL is damn cool. It is much harder than perl to understand, but it is infinitely powerfull
    (Yes, Haskell works with infinite data structures easily, or better said lazily:) :))

    addition BTW I can provide you with current PUGS binaries for Win32 or Linux, It is 4+Mb executable.

      Algol is infinitely powerful, too.

Log In?
Username:
Password:

What's my password?
Create A New User
Node Status?
node history
Node Type: perlquestion [id://446269]
Approved by Joost
Front-paged by Courage
help
Chatterbox?
and the web crawler heard nothing...

How do I use this? | Other CB clients
Other Users?
Others studying the Monastery: (4)
As of 2020-06-05 04:16 GMT
Sections?
Information?
Find Nodes?
Leftovers?
    Voting Booth?
    Do you really want to know if there is extraterrestrial life?



    Results (35 votes). Check out past polls.

    Notices?