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I used to be a saint

by thor (Priest)
on Oct 31, 2005 at 01:09 UTC ( #504102=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

So...we all know that XP is just a meaningless number. However, I'd taken a certain kind of satisfaction in attaining sainthood. Something about logging in and seeing "you have (some large number) of XP before level vroom" was nice. However, I see that sometime today, a whole lot of new levels were added. Was there any particular reason for this? Again...it's not that I'm in any way mad. I'm just curious...

thor

Feel the white light, the light within
Be your own disciple, fan the sparks of will
For all of us waiting, your kingdom will come

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: I used to be a saint
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Oct 31, 2005 at 01:25 UTC
    It's just a maturing process for PerlMonks. When I hit sainthood (3000 XP) four years ago, I think I was around #80. Today, there are 416 people with 3000 XP or more and 73 people with 10,000 XP or more. I think it's really cool I have something other than attempting to break into the top 51 and vainly attempting to surpass BrowserUk2 to look forward to.

    However, there is an actual real change - the XP required to have 40 votes/day has gone up dramatically. 3000 XP used to have 40 votes (it now has 24). You now need 30,000 XP to have 40 votes. You can also get more than 40 votes/day - a Pope3 gets 54 votes. I am definitely looking forward to spending an extra 2 votes/day voting on all of Abigail-II's nodes until he hits 40,000 XP. :-)

    1. I'm #7 right now.
    2. The only person who joined after me with more XP than me.
    3. While vroom is the only Pope right now, merlyn is only about a year away from becoming the second Pope ...

    My criteria for good software:
    1. Does it work?
    2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?

      However, there is an actual real change - the XP required to have 40 votes/day has gone up dramatically. 3000 XP used to have 40 votes (it now has 24).

      I wonder how that's really going to play out. Will the $NORM drop significantly as there are fewer votes per person or do enough people fail to vote that it shouldn't make a difference? As of this writing, it stands at 11.3789 . It will be interesting to see if it drops. If so, it may take considerably more time to reach the levels we've previously attained.

      Cheers,
      Bishop Ovid

      New address of my CGI Course.

        Actually, among some of the lower XP levels, the number of votes/day increased. So, it's possible that $NORM might increase. The drop occurred in the 1000XP+ area. I suspect that most of those people don't spend all their votes, anyways.

        Frankly, I might spend up to 20 votes on the day's posts, if it's an odd day. The rest I spend on my quixotic quest to increase Abigail-II's XP to 40k. (I usually increase his XP by 10-15/day.)


        My criteria for good software:
        1. Does it work?
        2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?

        Possibly increasing $NORM is as good an indication as any that the Voting/Experience system was due for a shake up, unless the overall quality of nodes has actually gone up appreciably (which is possible too).

        You just have to continue posting more good stuff Bishop Ovid, which is a lot of what the whole XP system is about anyway. Now you have more incentive :)

        Father GrandFather


        Perl is Huffman encoded by design.
Re: I used to be a saint
by monarch (Priest) on Oct 31, 2005 at 01:11 UTC
    I just noticed that I am no longer an abbot and instead am a level 10 something (hermit I think)..

    I'll start rifling around the documentation now to see what changed.. but I expected a site discussion topic on this perhaps? Or is this just a halloween hack..

    Update: wow! Looks like a gazillion more points are required now. I was halfway to being a saint.. but now I'm like.. well.. in the dust. You need 80,000 XP to be a saint! See Voting/Experience System.

Re: I used to be a saint
by GrandFather (Sage) on Oct 31, 2005 at 01:43 UTC

    Note that the saints are still saints, but now can continue up through the ranks in a rather more meaningfull fashion. I rather like seeing that I have only a three digit number of XP to go before attaining the next rank, rather than a 6 digit number as was the case until today.

    BTW. How is it that three "senior" monks replied to OP's node without approving it? Surely they can't all have had their consideration rights taken away?


    Perl is Huffman encoded by design.
      Because I don't approve a node unless I, personally, approve of it and I don't frontpage a node unless I feel that inexperienced people definitely need to see this node (either as an example or a warning). But, then again, that's me.

      My criteria for good software:
      1. Does it work?
      2. Can someone else come in, make a change, and be reasonably certain no bugs were introduced?
        Because I don't approve a node unless I, personally, approve of it
        I guess I don't see the grounds on which you disapprove of this kind of content...

        thor

        Feel the white light, the light within
        Be your own disciple, fan the sparks of will
        For all of us waiting, your kingdom will come

Re: I used to be a saint
by ysth (Canon) on Oct 31, 2005 at 02:52 UTC
    Perhaps we can distinguish between saints and Saints. At 3000xp, you are a saint, and entered in Saints in our Book. At 80000xp, you become a Saint.
      Then should we note the difference between being a "saint" and being a "Saint". Just like the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?

      -Kurt

Re: I used to be a saint
by blue_cowdawg (Monsignor) on Oct 31, 2005 at 03:15 UTC
        However, I'd taken a certain kind of satisfaction in attaining sainthood.

    So did I, but I think the changes are ultimately for the better and may encourage more participation among the former monks.

    Personally I have to confess that I may have become complacent myself and have gained a newfound sense of motivation to participate again.

    To infinity and beyond.....


    Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Professional
    Peter -at- Berghold -dot- Net; AOL IM redcowdawg Yahoo IM: blue_cowdawg
Re: I used to be a saint
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Oct 31, 2005 at 01:29 UTC

    Qudos to him/her/them who implemented this.


    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
Re: I used to be a saint
by chas (Priest) on Oct 31, 2005 at 06:21 UTC
    I guess it made me a little sad when I noticed the change. I wasn't sure why, but after thinking about it a bit, I believe it was because PM has been a comforting constant thing for me in a rather random world, so a sudden change seemed unsettling. But everything changes, I suppose, and this doesn't really alter the character of the place. Maybe also I thought it would be nice to be a saint without having to be dead first...now that's become harder.(However, I did get some emails a while back offering degrees and titles based on one's life experience, and I think one could be pope for $35 or thereabouts. It was just a minor popehood, though...)
Re: I used to be a saint
by pboin (Deacon) on Oct 31, 2005 at 13:54 UTC

    Yeah, I don't really like change any more than the next guy...

    What I'm immediately missing is the binary nature of Sainthood. I'm not one, but I'm on track to be one. This has been taken away, and now there's a vague continuum that I'm drifting around in. There doesn't appear to be such a tangible threshold that I can 'make it' to... (Although we as a community may continue to revere 3000XP -- that remains to be seen.)

    That's the emotional side though. Realistically, I'm 100% positive that this is a good move for PerlMonks. To a certain extent, the Saints are what this place is all about. They volunteer their time for not only infrastructure, but to share and teach some immensely valuable concepts. Anything that motivates, encourages or benefits those who have come before me and given me a hand up, I'm behind, without question.

    So, to those People-Formerly-Known-As-Saints: Thank You.

Re: I used to be a saint
by phydeauxarff (Priest) on Oct 31, 2005 at 18:44 UTC
    Actually, I think it is a fantastic idea and an opportunity for me.

    As far as I am concerned the real reason for the voting and experience system is as an encouragement to participation.

    I realized that once I maxed out to Saint, for better or for worse my participation dropped off...admitedly this was due in-part to demands in real life but I think that giving folks something more to work toward than attaining level vroom is a great idea as it will continue to provide encouragement.

Re: I used to be a saint
by Your Mother (Bishop) on Oct 31, 2005 at 21:28 UTC

    I love the change. It'd be fun to know how many (CV|resume)s needed to be updated afterward.

Re: I used to be a saint
by gregor42 (Parson) on Nov 04, 2005 at 14:29 UTC

    My fellow monks, I must with all humility submit my discord...

    "No sir, I don't like it." - Mr. Horse, Ren & Stimpy

    My personal experience was that I got to be a saint (now we're using the little 's' are we?) for all of 2 months or so. And of course this is about the time that a certain core group started grumbling that there were 'too many Saints'. How this could be a bad thing I still don't understand. It just meant to me that there was a thriving community and a large number of people willing to put effort into sustaining it. But now I log in & see that the elitists have won. I guess I'll get back in line with the rest of the steerage.

    I think of this in the way that I think about Viagra. When you get older you don't want to have to worry about certain things driving you crazy anymore. Why artificially extend the experience?

    Another way of looking at it is like being 'rich'. After a certain point of wealth accumulation you're considered 'rich'. Are you Oprah rich or Bill Gates rich or just really big house and nice cars rich? Does it really matter to the people who can barely afford make ends meet? No. If it matters at all it's only to other rich people.

    One effect is that lurking will no longer be honored so highly. St. Erudil is now level 17 for example. I find a certain melancholy associated with that. We honor and reward those who choose to speak constantly over those who choose their words with great care..

    The only argument that I can fathom that allows me to accept this change without any further outrage such as you you have just endured is this:

    Hubris is a virtue.

    And that - I cannot argue with. And make no mistake, this is all about hubris.

    So, I humbly thank you for your indulgence.



    Wait! This isn't a Parachute, this is a Backpack!
      One effect is that lurking will no longer be honored so highly. St. Erudil is now level 17 for example. I find a certain melancholy associated with that. We honor and reward those who choose to speak constantly over those who choose their words with great care..

      With no disrespect Erudil, I've paid my homage to his art before, I wonder how many Seekers (whether newbies looking for a starting place, or old hands with a mental block and facing a deadline), have had their immediate problems solved by it?

      It has probably inspired many, but helped?

      Carefully chosen words may have greater significance in the long term, to off-the-cuff suggestions for fixing immediate problems, but is this place a mutual help society or a Dead Poet's Society?


      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
        As former saint, I am glad about the change. It is motivation.

        As for Erudil - I'm pretty sure, a few(!) more words from him with his choosen care, and he will jump up this new ladder too.

        Bye
         PetaMem
            All Perl:   MT, NLP, NLU

        Carefully chosen words may have greater significance in the long term, to off-the-cuff suggestions for fixing immediate problems, but is this place a mutual help society or a Dead Poet's Society?

        I prefer the metaphor of the monastery. It promotes RESPECT and acceptance. Having a pecking order among the initiate is part of forming a society and driving education. It is important. Allowing people to graduate from that and become an 'accepted' core community member is a meaningful exercise. Prolonging the experience IMHO cheapens that and encourages elitism.

        Is one Doctor more of a Doctor because she writes more articles? Because he treats more patients? Because they achieved more than one doctorate degree?

        I apologize for dragging anyone's name into a conversation as an example. I have great respect for Erudil and all of the other monks my senior in XP, Perl know-how, or accumulated time since becoming a member. Merlyn doesn't need a fancier title for all of us to know about his contribution.

        "You performed a great service for me. To give you thanks with words would be to cheapen the gift." - Kwai Chang Caine

        Clearly I'm in the minority of opinion here. Part of why I bothered to post my opinion at all was simply to add to the diversity displayed. I don't expect things to go back. Neither am I persuaded that this is a better way. There was a time when XP whoring was considered passe'. That time, I think has passed. It will come again. All Good Things...and so on...



        Wait! This isn't a Parachute, this is a Backpack!
      I think of this in the way that I think about Viagra. When you get older you don't want to have to worry about certain things driving you crazy anymore. Why artificially extend the experience?
      No disrespect meant, but if I'm reading your post correctly, are you saying that you look forward to the day when your anatomy is no longer able to keep up with your libido? Or perhaps you long for the day when your libido wanes. In either case, you've weakened your case in my eyes. I'll take that sort of distraction any day...:)

      thor

      Feel the white light, the light within
      Be your own disciple, fan the sparks of will
      For all of us waiting, your kingdom will come

        I'll take that sort of distraction any day..

        Then you'll be distracted EVERY day. :)

        My point is that we grow out of things - nature designs us that way. With maturity goes the need to fuss over things like pumping one's own ego in the form of who's lot the biggest and most attractive bulge in their pants. (It's the one with the fattest wallet, BTW.)



        Wait! This isn't a Parachute, this is a Backpack!
Re: I used to be a saint
by TStanley (Canon) on Nov 01, 2005 at 17:21 UTC
    I think the level additions are a good thing for this site, and will ultimately bring back more participation, as most of us try to achieve 'Saint'.
    I have to wonder though, how many of us are going to have to change the Perl Geek Code on our homenodes :-)

    TStanley
    --------
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing -- Edmund Burke

      wonder though, how many of us are going to have to change the Perl Geek Code on our homenodes

      I think it would be the Perl Geek Code that needs a revision now. Backwards compatible in the PM("WP") section (eg: s/Saint/Curate/), please.

      WP+++ for Curate, WP++++ for Archbishop, WP+++++ or WP* for Pope

      Cheers, Sören

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