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Re^5: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment

by hsmyers (Canon)
on May 13, 2008 at 23:11 UTC ( #686398=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^4: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
in thread Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment

You display attributes of my rant quite nicely. Thank you. I can manage to run Linux to test my CPAN offerings--- why can't you return the favor? If you don't want your software to run under windows, just say so--- no big deal. I believe your demand to be paid (in jest I hope) exactly illustrates the arrogance I spoke of when it comes to issues like this. The question is why? At all odds, Windows will die a natural death sooner or later. But surprise, so will Unix. All things considered your post is pretty thin and more than a little, how shall we say aggressive? I've no clue why you might write open source software and without regard to those reasons I applaud your doing so. That said, a job half done is still half done. 7 out of 10 machines out there have problems with those who can't get it right. Why contribute to this inequity? Why do you copy Microsoft and expect your users to debug your software? Why should it have had non-portable dependencies in the first place? The lack of empathy is really quite surprising. I'm not sure what to make of it...

--hsm

"Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
  • Comment on Re^5: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment

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Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by chromatic (Archbishop) on May 14, 2008 at 00:29 UTC
    I can manage to run Linux to test my CPAN offerings--- why can't you return the favor?

    I just sped up the garbage collector in Parrot measurably today. Why don't you spend your free time digging through piles of underdocumented C code, perusing profiling output, and reading research papers?

    I spent part of my weekend backporting three features from Perl 6 to Perl 5. Why don't you spend your free time patching parsers and figuring out how to rewrite optrees?

    I suspect your answer to both questions is the same as my answer to why I don't develop software on Windows. Care to dial back that self-righteousness some?

    If you don't want your software to run under windows, just say so...

    Did I say that? (That's a rhetorical question, as I said I'm happy to apply patches to help my software work on Windows.) If the people who run Windows and know how to program for Windows and want to program for Windows don't want my software to run under Windows, they should continue doing exactly what they're doing.

    I've been berated, questioned, and attacked for having bugs in my software due to the fact that I don't run Windows and don't know how to program for Windows. How many people have even thanked me for making my software available and giving them the source code so that someone could possibly get it running on Windows? How many people have offered to pay me for my cost of getting a Windows machine and license and compiler tools and spending my free time learning how to write software for Windows and debugging on Windows when I don't want to do it and expect I won't enjoy it? (I've written software for Windows, many years ago. It was unpleasant. There's a reason I don't do it anymore.)

    The lack of empathy is really quite surprising. I'm not sure what to make of it...

    It comes from frustration at the staggering sense of entitlement some people have. I provide decent code, comprehensive test suites, and a liberal license for free. I would be happy to receive patches. I'm not happy to receive lectures on what I should or shouldn't be doing for my free time. If you want to tell me what to do, either hire me or find some other mutually beneficial way to compel me, because I'm very happy to tell ungrateful jerks to fix it themselves. (That's why I provide decent code, comprehensive test suites, and a liberal license.)

      To tell you the truth, I'd be more than happy if you continued in your efforts going forward with Perl 6 and bootstrapping Perl 5. As I said I applaud your work. Did you miss that part in your response? To me it is just a matter of craftsmanship. Why in the world would you want anyone(Windows user or not) to have problems with your software? Not you chromatic--- this is the 'you' of my original rant. What all of the posts I've seen today admit to is that they don't even bother to test their code on the hated platform. I find that amazing.

      Now (this part is for you chromatic):
      I'm not happy to receive lectures on what I should or shouldn't be doing for my free time. If you want to tell me what to do, either hire me or find some other mutually beneficial way to compel me, because I'm very happy to tell ungrateful jerks to fix it themselves.
      If you look at the postings thus far you should be able to note that this started as a classic case of "I wasn't talking to you." So if you are suggesting that I am lecturing you then you need to rethink. If my replies to your "Hold on now" post seem a lecture; well there is not much I can do about that. I make a simple observation and what I get in response is not discourse, but anger. I have never in the years that I've been part of PM ever, EVER, told you or any other monk what to do. Certainly not about your work for the Perl community. Are you suggesting that I have? Or are you just responding to me as a proxy for those who have. Some of the text I seen so far, I've seen before. I know these are points of friction for you and I understand that to the extent I'm able. My work is no where near as important(hell it's not even important) as yours, but I still had things that piss me off no end happen for no better reason than I made the contribution if the first place.

      --hsm

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
        What all of the posts I've seen today admit to is that they don't even bother to test their code on the hated platform. I find that amazing.

        Why is that amazing? I don't test my code on platforms I don't have access to. It's remarkably difficult. I rely on people who have problems to report bugs. I don't know how much easier to make it for them to do so.

        I make a simple observation and what I get in response is not discourse, but anger. I have never in the years that I've been part of PM ever, EVER, told you or any other monk what to do. Certainly not about your work for the Perl community. Are you suggesting that I have?

        I'm suggesting that you, me, Larry, no one has the right to tell other volunteers what to do with their spare time or to berate them for caring about different things than you, I, Larry, anyone else cares about. It doesn't matter if the person is reasonably famous within the Perl world and wrote a book or two on the subject or is someone who's just appeared with his or her first module.

        You're right that I'm completely frustrated with the lack of support from many Windows users. Where my software doesn't work on their platform, it's not that I don't want it to work on that platform. It's that I don't use that platform and have no desire to use that platform. My experience is that no one cares enough about my software on Windows to put forth any effort even to report bugs from Windows, but plenty of them put forth the effort to complain that I don't run Windows.

        This does not endear me to test my software on Windows. I suspect I'm not alone in this feeling.

        My work is no where near as important(hell it's not even important) as yours....

        Now you're not being fair to yourself. If people were ragging on you for not doing things their way, I'd stick up for you too. If you don't run a particular platform or it's not enjoyable for you to spend your precious volunteer time porting to a particular platform, that's exactly your right, and no one should criticize that choice of yours.

Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by szabgab (Priest) on May 14, 2008 at 03:01 UTC

    On one hand I totally understand your frustration with both the relatively low level of perl support for Windows and with the negitve feelings you get from such responses.

    On the other hand I know that both chromatic and petdance put a lot of energy in developing open source code especially for perl, testing and parrot. So I would not come to them with any complaint why don't they do more. Heck I should not do that to anyone who is giving up her free time to support some open source project.

    I am not a Windows user myself but as my clients occasionally need stuff done on it I have one in a VMware installation and I constantly feel pain there. I am also teaching Perl and most of my clients are Windows users so I really would like to get better Perl support on Windows.

    I think providing better support for Windows users will be a big boost to Perl so I would like to see more people helping the effort of adamk to improve Strawberry Perl, more people running smoke testing for CPAN modules on Windows and more people sending patches.

      I didn't come to them. They added on to a conversation they were not part of.

      I've been here for more than long enough to know the value of the work both have done for PM and Perl. If I could afford it, I'd fund them for the foreseeable future just on the basis of what has been done thus far.

      By the way, I've not said that Perl supports Windows poorly. I've haven't found that much of a problem at least with the work that I've done. Some how or another I've managed to find the packages I need, install and use them with great success. Sometimes it causes unnecessary hair loss; but programming does that anyway.

      --hsm

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
        I didn't come to them. They added on to a conversation they were not part of.

        I didn't read "Unix programmers" as "Unix programmers (except chromatic, who's just awesome)". I read it as "People who don't program for Windows". I thought that assessment was unfair.

Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by runrig (Abbot) on May 14, 2008 at 02:28 UTC
    I can manage to run Linux to test my CPAN offerings--- why can't you return the favor?

    Uhh, some people prefer not to pay for something they don't want?

    I can manage to run Linux to test my CPAN offerings--- why can't you return the favor? If you don't want your software to run under windows, just say so

    He didn't say he didn't want it to run under Windows, he said he doesn't have a Windows machine. When I find a bug on *nix or Windows, I'll send in a patch to the author if I can...I don't expect the author to be running the same OS as me.

Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by petdance (Parson) on May 14, 2008 at 01:31 UTC
    Why do you copy Microsoft and expect your users to debug your software?

    It's not that those of us who don't use Windows expect others to debug the software, but rather that we're not particularly interested if Windows people use it. (Exception: ack) People write software to scratch their individual itches, and release it hoping that someone else will find it useful. That doesn't mean that because someone has put something out there for free that you have any reasonable expectation that it will work for you.

    Whenever my wife & I buy a new piece of furniture, if nobody else in the family is interested, we'll leave the old piece, say, a coffee table, out on the curb. We figure that someone will pick it up and find it useful. It's usually not more than a day or two that it takes for someone to pick it up. Now imagine that someone knocks on our front door, complaining "That table doesn't match my living room! Your lack of empathy is quite surprising!"

    That's you.

    Maybe we should just stop leaving things on the curb? Would that be better?

    xoxo,
    Andy

      It's not that those of us who don't use Windows expect others to debug the software, but rather that we're not particularly interested if Windows people use it.
      My point precisely.

      --hsm

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
        But so what? Why in the world do you think you're entitled to have free software run on your specific platform?

        xoxo,
        Andy

Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on May 15, 2008 at 11:29 UTC

    Update: I see now that you have already gotten the points – I hadn’t gotten that deep down the thread yet.

    I can manage to run Linux to test my CPAN offerings--- why can't you return the favor?

    Has Microsoft started giving away Windows licences? Did I miss something?

    I believe your demand to be paid (in jest I hope) exactly illustrates the arrogance I spoke of

    Excuse me – in jest? What would you say if, f.ex., someone came to SoPW and said “this script doesn’t work, someone fix it for me”?

    Makeshifts last the longest.

Re^6: Suggestions on Deploying Perl Test Environment
by GrandFather (Sage) on May 14, 2008 at 22:18 UTC

    I'm a Windows user. I have very occasionally and for very specific reasons installed Linux (mostly in a VM). But there is a world of difference between spending a little time to installing a free operating system, and in forking out a significant amount of cash to buy an operating system for test purposes.

    Expecting people (who are trying to make your life easier) to pay for and maintain systems that they otherwise have no use for and no interest in is simply unreasonable.

    As for "Why should it have had non-portable dependencies in the first place?". That sounds exactly like one of our testers (now left) who used to get angry with us for "putting bugs in". We didn't "put the bugs in" and people don't intentionally write code that is not portable. But there is a lot of work and a great deal of skill required to consistently write portable code - about the same measure of both that is required to write bug free code. Do you write bug free code first time every time? I know a place where you can get a job if you can, just name your price.


    Perl is environmentally friendly - it saves trees
      How does code that does not work in windows make life easier for the widows user? You think that it is alright for programmers to not test their code ducking under the excuse that the other OS, costs money? You think that it is just fine for Windows programmers to not only have to pay for the OS they use, but to be forced to do the testing that the Unix programmer refused to do? Nice double tax that. Of course writing portable code is hard. Writing good code is hard. Excuses are easy. Can't afford the OS?— surely someone know to the author has a windows box? Hell worst case email me and I'll help to the extent that I can. It really isn't that hard to find a solution to this problem— but only if an effort is made to look.

      --hsm

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

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