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Re: Array/List Strangeness

by ikegami (Patriarch)
on Aug 04, 2009 at 23:42 UTC ( [id://785932]=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Array/List Strangeness

Why should that last one return an empty list?

Noone answered the question, and I'm also interested in knowing too. I don't know why they don't all behave one way or the other.

If there's a reason to do it for list slices, the same reason exists for array slices. If there's no reason to do it for array slices, there's not reason to use it for list slices.

Update: Added "slices" to avoid confusion.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^2: Array/List Strangeness (why)
by tye (Sage) on Aug 05, 2009 at 14:20 UTC

    Most of the stuff about "a list" vs "an array" so far in this thread is just bull; making up stuff to explain observations without actually hitting on anything real.

    Perl has code that decides what to return when an array slice is done and it has code that decides what to return when a list slice is done. These different sections of code are not forced to return undef versus "nothing" based on some underlying difference in what an array is versus what a list is.

    The real reason why those sections of code were written to handle these cases differently is documented just below the already quoted section of the documentation (perldata):

    A slice of an empty list is still an empty list. Thus:

    @a = ()[1,0]; # @a has no elements @b = (@a)[0,1]; # @b has no elements @c = (0,1)[2,3]; # @c has no elements

    But:

    @a = (1)[1,0]; # @a has two elements @b = (1,undef)[1,0,2]; # @b has three elements

    This makes it easy to write loops that terminate when a null list is returned:

    while ( ($home, $user) = (getpwent)[7,0]) { printf "%-8s %s\n", $user, $home; }

    And I think it is easy to see that somebody is much less likely to write like:

    while( ( $home, $user )= @results[7,0] ) { ... }

    But I actually consider part of the documentation to be documenting a bug that was an accident of implementation. Quoting just the relevent parts:

    A slice of an empty list is still an empty list. Thus:

    @c = (0,1)[2,3]; # @c has no elements

    You see that @c is the result of a list slice of a non-empty list. The stated motivation explains why we want a list slice of an empty list to be empty (so that "failure" inside of the list slice gets communicated out to the "list assignment"). It doesn't explain why we want a slice of non-existent elements from the slicing of a list to magically disappear.

    Sure, making out-of-bounds elements of a list slice disappear is one way to implement things in order to get "a slice of an empty list is empty". But I'd rather the implementation not have such side effects. That is, I'd rather the slicing of a non-empty list treated out-of-bound elements consistently with how they are handled with array slices (and hash slices). Heck, the documented behavior for all-out-of-bounds items is even inconsistent with how list slices themselves behave:

    @d= (1,2,3)[9,1,8]; # @d= (undef,2,undef);

    I also believe that this behavior has changed subtly over the years. I know I've discussed/argued with Larry over this at least once.

    BTW, if you want to avoid this particular bit of magic, you can rewrite your list slice as an array slice: [get_a_list()]->[7,0]. And, as quietly noted in the documentation, if you want this behavior for an array slice, just write it as a list slice: (@array)[7,0].

    - tye        

      Talking about bull ;-)

      BTW, if you want to avoid this particular bit of magic, you can rewrite your list slice as an array slice: [get_a_list()]->[7,0]. And, as quietly noted in the documentation, if you want this behavior for an array slice, just write it as a list slice: (@array)[7,0].

      I am pretty sure that slicing while dereferencing with right-arrow isn't (yet) implemented in perl!

      DB<71> x [qw/a b c/]->[2] # works like expected 0 'c' DB<72> x [qw/a b c/]->[1,0] # oops! 0 'a' DB<73> x [qw/a b c/]->[0,1] 0 'b'

      Seems that instead to try slicing, the comma is interpreted in scalar context. Hence the last element of the slice-list is chosen as index!

      UPDATE: the only way I know to slice lists like arrays is:

      DB<83> x @{[ qw// ]}[0,1] 0 undef 1 undef DB<84> x @{[ qw/a b c/ ]}[0,1] 0 'a' 1 'b'

      Cheers Rolf

        Sorry, multi-value slices require more complex syntax: @{[1,2,3]}[8,1,9]. The -> only works when you just want one value back. The @{ } form isn't actually much more verbose, but it is rather uglier. There was a patch to allow [...]->@[...] syntax (and I believe there is even a fork of Perl5 that includes such a patch) but it never got applied to official Perl 5 (I don't think I ever saw a good reason given for why it shouldn't be applied, though).

        - tye        

Re^2: Array/List Strangeness
by Marshall (Canon) on Aug 05, 2009 at 02:29 UTC
    For a Perl @var, two thing can happen:
    (a) @var is declared but does not exist in the sense that it is "empty", containing NO values, not even "undef".
    (b) @var is declared and does exist in the sense that it has "actual values" or undef as one or more values (undef is a value).

    my @var = (1,2,3);
    @var = (); # @var is "empty", NO values
    @var =undef; # @var has one value, undef

    Yes, this is weird that an @var can have "nothing" in it, not even undef. This @var=() is often seen in code that "zero'es" out a @variable.

    I have tried to avoid using the term "array" or "list" for these @vars. I remain curious as to when @var is an array and when @var is a list.

    Update: I prefer the word "list" for Perl @vars because a list can be empty. I don't think of an array as "empty". In my thinking, an array has a null element, null pointer, etc. But the idea that it is "empty", in the same sense that a list can be "empty" (like a completely blank "to-do list) doesn't make sense to me.

      Again, I know *what* is happening. The question is *why*. Why does requesting an non-existing array element return undef and requesting an non-existing list element return nothing.

      I have tried to avoid using the term "array" or "list" for these @vars. I remain curious as to when @var is an array and when @var is a list.

      @var is an array. It evaluates to a list in list context, just like every other operator.

        There is no such thing as a non-existing array element. Every element of an array, which has not been set to something else, will return the value undef. Even if you only use the first 10 elements of the array, all other elements are virtually existing and hold the value undef. Also, an array is evaluated as a list in list context, but this happens after the slicing. Compare the results of the following code:
        use Data::Dumper; my @foo = qw/a b c/; my @bar = $foo[3]; print Dumper \@bar; @bar = ( @foo )[3]; print Dumper \@bar;
Re^2: Array/List Strangeness
by LanX (Saint) on Aug 05, 2009 at 10:55 UTC
    Noone answered the question, and I'm also interested in knowing too. I don't know why they don't all behave one way or the other.

    the "why" is explained in the docs, it's meant to produce a false value in a while loop.

    from perldata#Slices

    This makes it easy to write loops that terminate when a null list is returned: 1. while ( ($home, $user) = (getpwent)[7,0]) { 2. printf "%-8s %s\n", $user, $home; 3. }
    If there's a reason to do it for list slices, the same reason exists for array slices.

    The OP didn't use any array slices (jethro did). But I have to say I'm not happy with this non-orthogonality...

    UPDATE: IMHO there should be a special perldoc only for lists explaining the differences to arrays and how to avoid confusion...

    Cheers Rolf

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