I'm considering making a radical change in a year's time, leaving Toronto and moving to Europe to work for a couple of years. (There shouldn't be work visa problems -- I was born in the UK and can get a UK passport so presumably could work in the EU.)
I spent a very happy four month work-term in Germany in the Fall of 1980, and managed to pick up German pretty well. That's mostly gone, but I have enough French to get by. I'm guessing I could pick up Italian or Spanish too.
Comments? Thoughts? Pros and Cons?
Alex / talexb / Toronto
"Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds
Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by JavaFan (Canon) on Aug 17, 2010 at 22:14 UTC
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"Europe" isn't vast distance wide for North American, its range of cultures is wider than the ones found in North America. I could very well imagine someone from North America having no problem working in some parts of Europe, but feeling quite out of place in other parts.
Heck, I'd say most Europeans would feel out-of-place/lost/lonely/aweful if they were to pick up their things and move three countries over.
Are there any specific countries you're looking for? Or do you want a generic answer which considers Ireland, Bulgaria, Spain and Latvia as indistinguishable? That's probably the worst mistake you can make, assuming Europe is mostly the same. (But fair is fair, most Europeans consider the USA to be the same everywhere, and Canada to be its 51st state).
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Are there any specific countries you're looking for? Or do you want a generic answer which considers Ireland, Bulgaria, Spain and Latvia as indistinguishable? That's probably the worst mistake you can make, assuming Europe is mostly the same.
I haven't really thought too much about where, but anywhere that has decent infrastructure (health care, Internet, cell service, grocery stores, pubs) would do. Nice scenery would be nice. Somewhere I could go sailing would be a bonus. Somewhere that has seasons would be great too.
And I am aware that culture changes in much smaller distances in Europe than in North America -- I've been to the UK a dozen times and know that the accents change in just a 15 minute drive.
Alex / talexb / Toronto
"Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds
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Internet, cell service and grocery stores should be available in most of the EU, with perhaps the exception the rural areas on the countries at the Easter side. Be aware though that for a North American, grocery stores are closed often. Being open 24/7 is very rare, and they typically close 6PM-10PM, depending on the country. In many countries, as a general rule, shops are closed on Sundays.
Pubs however, assuming you mean the UK definition of pub, are only found in the UK and Ireland. The rest of Europe has bars, cafes, and restaurants.
As for health care, that varies a lot. Just as it varies a lot in North America (large difference between Canada and the USA).
As for seasons, well, stay over there. I've lived on both sides of the pond and where I lived in the USA (NE coast), you had seasons. Much better defined than anywhere in Europe. As for sailing, most European countries border a sea.
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Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by Your Mother (Archbishop) on Aug 17, 2010 at 22:27 UTC
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I worked (very short term) in the UK, DE, NL, and IT (in mostly English situations). Culture shock / freakout tends to set in for a lot of people at around 6 months. Some folks never get it that badly. And if you expect it, it's easier to handle.
I say go for it! Have an adventure!
Update: Realized I didn't really answer the question. I loved it. I'd have stayed in Italy in particular if I'd been able to get a work visa. The UK is the only place that was a little uneasy/weird for me (personally, it's not a judgement).
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What was weird with England?
/Scandinavian that is thinking about next job...
Edit: Thanks for the answer. I can relate. I'm now in Finland instead of my native Sweden and it is frustratingly non-exotic -- almost like moving to another Swedish city. (I recommend Finland a bit more than Sweden, all things considered. Less political correctness. Also, while the tax department are incompetents, most stuff works a bit better.)
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I found this Shaw quote to be strangely appropriate-
England and America are two countries separated by a common language.
One of the things I like about travel is that when I don't fully
understand things going around me (small talk, customs, idioms, etc) I
have a better time thinking of the place as "pure" or "friendly"
instead of "petty" and "banal." Speaking the language with complete
fluency, and understanding the culture, made England less like travel
and more like landing in some weird American state.
Plus, not to start a political tangent but, I have many problems with the US and most, if not all, of them I find reflected fairly directly in the UK. This may just be me though, so don't take that part as advice.
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Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by dHarry (Abbot) on Aug 18, 2010 at 12:07 UTC
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brother talexb
Europe consists of about 50 different countries! Obviously there are big differences between them (cultural, weather, tax system, health system, food! etc. etc.). I myself worked in the Netherlands, France (west) Germany, the UK and more recently Spain. In some countries like the Netherlands you can get away with English. In countries like Spain you have to learn to speak the language. If you speak French than picking up Spanish or Italian should not be too difficult.
I happen to have a North American colleague who worked in Germany, the Netherlands and now in Spain. He fought Spanish bureaucracy for a year or so before giving up. He now works in Spain through a so-called "E101" meaning, for him, that he is officially registered in the Netherlands and works temporarily outside the country. This construction can have certain advantages and is maybe a possibility for you too. Other countries don't care as long as you pay income tax:) The possibility of getting a UK passport makes a big difference.
Terms of employment are important too. For example salaries in the Netherlands, Germany and France are comparable. In the UK you would typically earn less and in Spain much less (in my experience and generally speaking). But of course the salary doesn't mean everything, also important are things like your health insurance, pension scheme, number of Holidays etc. etc.
I would like to know why you are considering making this step. I think it largely depends on what your expectations are. I myself like to see something of the world, for me money was never really a driver. If I were you I would compile a list of candidate countries and compare them thoroughly. Preparation is important to prevent unpleasant surprises. If you have any specific questions feel free to send me a PM.
But to get back to your question, In my experience (North) Americans like to work in Europe and fit in easily.
Cheers
Harry
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;-)
Whereas, in the US, it’s so much simpler!
- Health Insurance:
- You don’t have any.
- Pension Scheme:
- Ditto.
- Number of Holidays:
- “We’ve been noticing that you’ve been leaving before 9:00 PM the last couple days, and you weren’t here at all on Saturday or Sunday ... Can we please see you in our office? Right now?”
Perhaps it should come as no wonder that there would be a tremendous interest among North Americans about what is happening in Europe! :-/
“These times, they are a changin’ ...”
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“We’ve been noticing that you’ve been leaving before 9:00 PM the last couple days ... Can we please see you in our office? Right now?”
Heh .. I worked for a company like that here in Toronto once. (Yep, got fired from there too -- that's another story.) We were all working like crazy, and at one point I'd scheduled myself to get into work at midnight in advance of a business trip. I arrived just as my team lead was putting down the phone having called my house to see where I was.
I believe my gut feelings about the hours that an employer expects has gotten a lot better in the time since then.
I'm interested in Europe because I'd like a change of scenery, having lived in Toronto for over 25 years. Maybe I won't like it and happily come back to Toronto.
Alex / talexb / Toronto
"Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds
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I would like to know why you are considering making this step.
Suffice it to say it looks like I'm going to be forced to sell my house in Toronto and find housing for myself and my older step-son while he completes fourth year at Ryerson. Once his university education's complete, I'll be ready for adventure -- so why not leave Toronto?
I have relatives, family and friends in Vancouver, Kelowna, Calgary and Kitchener-Waterloo, but I'm thinking I should leave Canada for a while, if only to figure out what I want to do next.
And thanks for the variety of information on the various countries -- I am familiar with the geography of Europe, having informally studied European history of the last hundred years or so.
Alex / talexb / Toronto
"Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds
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Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by sundialsvc4 (Abbot) on Aug 18, 2010 at 01:41 UTC
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On a slightly-related question, I wonder if (and if so, how) “North Americans” (i.e. “Americans”) might be able to telecommute to European, or other, countries. Is it possible? Is it legal? Does it work?
Mind you, in tilting the conversation in such a direction, I emphatically do not want to trespass upon the well-established and very sensible caveat of “no jobs postings here,” which is very clearly stated and with which I entirely agree. I do not wish to go there, nor even to come close. Yet, this discussion (which I do not believe to be a trespass, although that is merely my opinion) does appear to be related ...
If anyone disagrees, just ignore this tangent...
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Regarding telecommuting to Europe from North America, my gut response is "Nope -- wouldn't work."
That's based on my experience while working in Germany in 1980 -- at 4pm on Fridays, we would down tools (well, step away from our keyboards) and have a wonderful little party with snacks, beer and wine. The artificial pecking order would disappear, and we'd all chat as equals, hearing about the news, the families, our plans for the weekend.
My brother is currently working in Italy, and described a colleague who talked about who she knew in the business on their first meeting. He thought that was odd, then as he met more people discovered that this was a way of people showing their bona fides.
Thus, from these scant two examples, I'm left with the impression that social relationships appear more important in Europe than they are in North America, which would suggest that telecommuting (working without much face to face social interaction) wouldn't work.
The other, relatively minor detail is that Europe is six to ten timezones ahead of North America, so unless one was working on a totally independent project, it would be a graveyard shift kind of job.
Alex / talexb / Toronto
"Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds
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Hi thalexb,
I'm happy to hear you have spent nice time in Germany in 80ies as I'm currently living and working in Germany. I just want to warn you that times have changed and you most likely will find no Friday afternoon party anymore in most german offices. Sure it depends on a company and there are for sure some lucky guys who are still working like a family but most of the time there is a pretty dry atmosphere. I would say spanisch, italian and french people are more like you described: they are very interested on social contacts and spend a lot of time talking about their interests.
Don't worry, Europe is for sure amazing and you should take a chance to spent some time here if you find a job or have enough money to stay here without working. Just be aware of time is changing and (this is always the best) don't carry any expectations with you.
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Certainly can work, it is difficult though (for the record I am in the UK, but work with people in Toronto). The time difference is the main problem, if both sides want to work '9-5' style hours, because getting face time is difficult. In a similar vein that back and forth of 'I am trying this, but it isn't working -- any ideas?' becomes very difficult and you need to be much more organised and utilise what direct communication time you do have.
I am not sure about the legal issues, but I have a friend who runs an IT business and he tele-employs people all over the world (inc. Australia and US), but works from the UK. I am sure there are tax issues, but they can be overcome... Like I said, the main issue is organisation and communication, but with hard work and clear rules and openness it is certainly possible.
The increasing amount of ways to connect (Skype etc...) does make all this easier though...
Just my two pence/cents.
Just a something something...
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Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by Argel (Prior) on Aug 18, 2010 at 19:31 UTC
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I don't have any specific advice, except to say that you should keep an eye on the economic situation, especially the Euro sovereign debt crisis. You probably want to avoid one of the PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain). But what you do not hear as much about is that French and German banks have a lot of exposure to some of the PIIGS, so if things get really ugly for the PIIGS, then expect France and Germany to take a hit. I would also suggest you shoot for a country that still has their own currency or better yet is not in the European Monetary Union because it's not clear if the Euro will survive the current financial crisis and if it does what it will look like (e.g. it could end up being a smaller union led by Germany) The general view once you get away from the mainstream media is EU has kicked the can down the road, meaning that e.g. Greece will very likely be a problem again in the near future. To be honest, Canada is weathering the storm fairly well right now, so from that perspective you might want to stay there (you could always move to a different region). Anyway, hate to be pessimistic, but there is little evidence there will be a fast recovery in the current financial crisis.
Elda Taluta; Sarks Sark; Ark Arks
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Yes and no.
Germany just had an economic growth of 2% (mainly based on growing exports to China and India), a shrinking population size and in the future a huge need of qualified workers.
OTOH the debts of the PIIGS will be paid by the little tax payers. :(
> I would also suggest you shoot for a country that still has their own currency or better yet is not in the European Monetary Union
Which can only mean a Scandinavian country, Switzerland or Britain.
But with the exception of the oil rich Norway, the economy of those countries is deeply connected to the Euro Zone.
Furthermore Britain has huge debts and is a coming candidate for the PIIGS zone, Ireland and Iceland just copied the non industrial "New Economy" model of growing Banks, mainly selling air as money ... to the Euro zone.
Industrial production is shrinking since Thatcher, at least Britain has some oil and gas in Scotland and a lot of trading connections with the former Empire.
So from the perspective of working conditions, salary, number of free days, social security, health system and price of living, I would rather recommend one of the continental "germanic speaking" countries.
With the exception of Germany you could easily live there without speaking anything else than English.
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With the exception of Germany you could easily live there without speaking anything else than English.
For the German speaking part of Switzerland that might be true, don't try it in the French or Italian speaking parts.
And you'll probably find it much harder to participate in non-work activities and mingle with the locals if you do not speak, or at least understand, the local language.
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I would also suggest you shoot for a country that still has their own currency or better yet is not in the European Monetary Union because it's not clear if the Euro will survive the current financial crisis and if it does what it will look like (e.g. it could end up being a smaller union led by Germany)
That's a lot of FUD.
The general view once you get away from the mainstream media is EU has kicked the can down the road, meaning that e.g. Greece will very likely be a problem again in the near future.
"Once you get away from the mainstream media". What does that mean? The realm of quacks and lunatics? Publications by opinionated, but uninformed people? Secret publications by Economist Noble Prize winners?
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So let me see if I have this right. I should be paying attention to the MSM, even though they failed to predict the financial crisis and continue to miss[report] important details and generally lag a couple months behind several more well informed blogs (when they do report something blogs were covering)??
And I should ignore sites like Calculated Risk that predicted the housing market collapse before it happened? Ditto for sites like naked capitalism that were discussing problems with derivatives, CDS's, shady accounting, etc. back in e.g. 2007??
And Simon Johnson, the former Chief Economist of the IMF who has testified before Congress (about the current financial crisis) multiple times -- no credibility there either? Look for his posts on The Baseline Sceanrio.
And the Financial Times, generally considered to be the best and most credible publication on economics -- I should ignore that too?
And Nobel Prize Laurette Professor Paul Krugman? He has decades of articles and several years worth of blog posts that show he has a proven track record. A lot of people don't like him, especially "economists" focused almost entirely on ideology over substance, but we can actually go back and see what he said back then vs. now to see who was right. For example a year ago many "economists" where warning about bond vigilantes and hyperinflation because bond rates went up a small amount. Meanwhile Professor Krugman was concerned about deflation. Well, a year later, there has been no hyperinflation and no bond vigilates destroying the market. In fact, bond rates dropped a fair amount. Meanwhile deflation a la Japan's Lost Decade (which has been more than a lost decade) seems much likely now than ever!! Though perhaps the most important and sobering article he written as of late is Defining Prosperity Down. Well worth a read.
As a side note, anyone looking for a good summary blog site, check out Professor Mark Thoma's Economist's View. He often links to the blogs I mentioned above along with several others, making it a great jumping off place.
Anyway, as empirical evidence has shown, there are several blogs that provide accurate information, reporting and serious commentary. If you want to get a better feel for what's really going on, then that's where you need to turn to these days. If you think you are getting accurate reporting from the MSM, then barring a few exceptions, you are sadly mistaken.
Elda Taluta; Sarks Sark; Ark Arks
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A snippet from an internal "Introduction to investment banking" course in a huge investment bank earlier this year:
Instructor: Who thinks the euro will survive with the same list of countries using it till the end of the year?
Pupils: (not a single hand up)
Instructor: Right, me neither.
P.S.:I don't really think though that Ireland belongs to the same group with the rest of the PIGS.
Jenda
Enoch was right!
Enjoy the last years of Rome.
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I don't really think though that Ireland belongs to the same group with the rest of the PIGS.
Well, they aren't in the same group as PIGS. But they're close. That's why there are PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain), PIIGS (PIGS + Ireland) and PIIGGS (PIIGS + United Kingdom).
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Ireland went on a big fiscal austerity kick early on, yet despite all of that investors in the 10-year bond market (where higher rates correspond to less confidence) actually favor Spain, which has been dragged kicking and screaming into fiscal austerity. So I do not see how you can exclude Ireland from the picture when the best measure of market confidence shows Ireland slightly worse off than Spain. You just don't hear about it as much, plus any contagion is expected to spread from Greece to Portugal and Spain first.
Elda Taluta; Sarks Sark; Ark Arks
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Re: How do North Americans find Europe as a workplace?
by zentara (Archbishop) on Aug 19, 2010 at 12:39 UTC
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