http://www.perlmonks.org?node_id=11121641


in reply to Re^2: Title bar and menu face lift?
in thread Title bar and menu face lift?

Some monks (myself included) use NoScript as a matter of local security policy. Have you ensured that the pages will display correctly even without JavaScript?

Lastly, PerlMonks does not use Web N.0 garbage currently and I request that PerlMonks continue to present its pages as documents instead of "application" hipster trash. This means sticking to the feature set of HTML4.01 and/or XHTML, although collapsibles are possible using only HTML4 <div>, checkboxes, and CSS. SearX uses this for its pages if you want a simple example.

Edit: Apologies for the harsh tone, but I have had too many things I liked screwed up by hipster "new! shiny!" change-for-no-good-reason and PerlMonks has been one of my few respites from that malignant idiocy. If it is not broken, do not fix it. "Old system that still works" is not "broken".

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Re^4: Title bar and menu face lift?
by GrandFather (Saint) on Sep 12, 2020 at 10:58 UTC
    I have had too many things I liked screwed up by hipster "new! shiny!" change-for-no-good-reason and PerlMonks has been one of my few respites from that malignant idiocy. If it is not broken, do not fix it. "Old system that still works" is not "broken".

    I completely agree! I too run NoScript. Often pages simply don't render with JavaScript turned off. Unless it is a page I really want or need to visit, I'll simply go somewhere else. Even for a page I have to visit I'll enable the minimum script I need to see the content I'm interested in. Funny how often that leaves large blank spaces free of adds and unwanted video content!

    Optimising for fewest key strokes only makes sense transmitting to Pluto or beyond

      The modern interwebs is fundamentally broken. It's sad that users have to take action to prevent crazy bloated, bandwidth wasting, cpu cycle burning garbage to protect their privacy and to enjoy a faster, less resource hungry experience. If you aren't already aware things like pi hole (old but nice write up by Troy Hunt here) exist to take away some of the associated ugly. Al Gore did not invent the interwebs for such shenanigans...

        ... bandwidth wasting ... to protect their privacy ...

        Funny you mention two areas where PerlMonks actually does wayy worse than modern web technology. :-D

        I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.
Re^4: Title bar and menu face lift?
by hippo (Chancellor) on Sep 12, 2020 at 10:25 UTC
    I have had too many things I liked screwed up by hipster "new! shiny!" change-for-no-good-reason and PerlMonks has been one of my few respites from that malignant idiocy. If it is not broken, do not fix it. "Old system that still works" is not "broken".

    I agree with every word of this. (++)


    🦛

Re^4: Title bar and menu face lift?
by erix (Prior) on Sep 12, 2020 at 11:29 UTC

    I have had too many things I liked screwed up by hipster "new! shiny!" change-for-no-good-reason and PerlMonks has been one of my few respites from that malignant idiocy. If it is not broken, do not fix it. "Old system that still works" is not "broken".

    Completely agree.

Re^4: Title bar and menu face lift?
by Lady_Aleena (Curate) on Sep 11, 2020 at 22:56 UTC

    All that will happen without javascript is that the details boxes will be closed for desktop users. That is no biggie. They will still toggle open without javascript.

    PerlMonks has to modernize. That means not sticking to HTML4.01/XHTML and CSS2. This site needs to become responsive and mobile friendly. Why not use tools that are already accepted by most browsers? I find it off-putting that new things are ignored just because they are new. Getting divs and checkboxes to work for collapsing is a pain, so using details makes sense.

    There will be teething pains, but those should go away quickly enough. Give this a chance, please?

    My OS is Debian 10 (Buster); my perl versions are 5.28.1 local and 5.16.3 or 5.30.0 on web host depending on the shebang.

    No matter how hysterical I get, my problems are not time sensitive. So, relax, have a cookie, and a very nice day!
    Lady Aleena

      "I find it off-putting that new things are ignored just because they are new."

      I don't think that is the case here. JavaScript is not required for a mobile friendly responsive front end. This sort of discussion is worth considering. My feelings are that the major issue preventing more development work (front or backend) is the fundamentals of the everything engine (N.B. this site runs a fork of everything made long ago). The mechanics of how it all hangs together are daunting to casual users. If I had time I'd work on a modern reimplementation in Mojolicious for a cleaner approach. Use of a more modern, far simpler framework would have several benefits, including making it less daunting for people to contribute.

      If you haven't already, try this: go to your Display Settings, and turn on the three options Lay out {nodelets|main|threads} as <div> instead of <table>. Then add CSS in the On-Site CSS Markup box to style those divs as you like. And in Free Nodelet Settings you can add javascript to mess around with behaviors and such. And when you've gotten something working you think is really cool, share it in PMD with "[Free Nodelet Hack]" in the title. :-)

      Here's how I have customized my layout using the above method: screenshot
      The big scrollable box near the top contains the "main" part of the page.
      The colored nodelet boxes below that float. :-)

      I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.
      That means not sticking to HTML4.01/XHTML and CSS2.

      Why?

      PerlMonks is a collection of documents. HTML4.01/XHTML are document markup.

      PerlMonks is not a Web N.0 collection of hipster "application" garbage. HTML5 is for applications and CSS is backwards/upwards compatible — you can use CSS3 with HTML4.01 and XHTML just fine.

      The HTML4 specification specifies document structure and leaves all details to the user's renderer. The HTML5 specification includes lengthy prescriptions for details of event processing. HTML4 is for documents; HTML5 is for hipster "application" garbage.

      This site needs to become responsive and mobile friendly.

      These issues were considered in HTML4.01 and early CSS. Proper HTML4.01 logical markup is mobile friendly. (Consider the media attribute on the <link rel="stylesheet"> tag.) "Responsive" seems to be a content-free buzzword as far as I can tell, so I say the site is already responsive, because "responsive" has no meaning.

      I find it off-putting that new things are ignored just because they are new.

      I find it off-putting that new things are introduced instead of learning how to use the existing technologies that can already solve the problem at hand.

      Getting divs and checkboxes to work for collapsing is a pain, so using details makes sense.

      You have a worked example in SearX. Why are you complaining about this?

        "Responsive" seems to be a content-free buzzword as far as I can tell...

        Well, it's not really. Please see Responsive web design. Thanks.

        I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.