http://www.perlmonks.org?node_id=393494

Many monks say that XP is meaningless but node reputation is important.

Many monks vote just for their own XP, because they have a chance to gain XP on each voted node. Many of them vote ++ or -- indifferently to content of a node. They pollute node reputation. Everyone can see that on Front page.

I ask gods to change XP gaining rules.

To make voting-for-XP monks happy I suggest to transfer gaining XP chances from voting to everyday logging in.

--
ccn

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: No more XP for voting!
by theorbtwo (Prior) on Sep 24, 2004 at 14:23 UTC

    The idea is that things that help the community should gain you XP, and things that damage it should loose you XP. Well-considered votes help the community by making our primary feedback system work, and should thus gain people XP. Your changes are based on the theory that too many people are getting the XP for voting even though they are not making the effort to vote for worthy nodes. I'm not sure what evidence you have to support this assertation. You say "Everyone can see that on Front page", but I'm not clear what you mean by that. Is there something about the front page that means that anybody voting for nodes that appear on the front page are doing so only because they're there, and in a random direction? Is there something about The Monastery Gates that makes it impossible to read?

    I'm not saying that being frontpaged doesn't garner a node more voters. I /am/ saying that it doesn't neccessarly decrease the fairness of those votes, as you seem to imply, absent evidence.

    Even if this is the case, why change the rules? Why not remove the voting buttons from The Monastery Gates?


    Warning: Unless otherwise stated, code is untested. Do not use without understanding. Code is posted in the hopes it is useful, but without warranty. All copyrights are relinquished into the public domain unless otherwise stated. I am not an angel. I am capable of error, and err on a fairly regular basis. If I made a mistake, please let me know (such as by replying to this node).

      "Well-considered votes help the community by making our primary feedback system work, and should thus gain people XP." sez theorbtwo.

      Amen! that is, amen, as long as "Well-considered" is the essential modifier.

      If we come to suspect/find_evidence/believe that "ill-considered" votes are a problem, a meta-moderation system like that at /. might help... but, on the other hand, it doesn't seem to be solving theirs.

Re: No more XP for voting!
by Happy-the-monk (Canon) on Sep 24, 2004 at 13:10 UTC

    Many other monks feel encouraged to vote because they might just get a little reward for it.
    And still make their mind up very carefully.
    I usually don't downvote either, there's too much good stuff that needs upvoting, happily, most of the time...

    Cheers, Sören

Re: No more XP for voting!
by coreolyn (Parson) on Sep 24, 2004 at 15:05 UTC

    Nothing personal Anonymous, but this idea bites! I'm one of the longest active monks here and I know that the majority of my XP ( hence rank ) comes from my daily voting and not from my posts. It's nice to recieve recognition and standing for staying active. Especially when it reflects 4 years of eyerolling at RTFM and Troll nodes so as to find the worthy nodes to upvote. While my contribution is nothing compared to the Gods it is nice to know that there is at least recognition of daily reading off them via meaningless XP.

    I don't agree with removing voting from the Monestary Gates as this is where I vote based upon the trust I put in my fellow monks ability to discern quality posts. Over the years I have found it quite reliable ( for the most part ).

Re: No more XP for voting!
by TrekNoid (Pilgrim) on Sep 24, 2004 at 13:58 UTC
    Many monks vote just for their own XP, because they have a chance to gain XP on each voted node. Many of them vote ++ or -- indifferently to content of a node.

    While it may be true that monks will vote on their own nodes, how do you know *why* they did it? (ie, 'just for their own XP'?)

    I tended to vote on replies to my nodes as a way of saying 'Thank You' to people that helped me out. Since just saying 'Thank you' in a reply tends to get you downvoted, then there's really no other way I can do it.

    Trek

      I never noticed that saying "thank you" in a reply gets you downvoted. As a matter of fact I usually ++ a reply from the OP, as I find it very polite to let people know that you have read and appreciated their answers.

      CountZero

      "If you have four groups working on a compiler, you'll get a 4-pass compiler." - Conway's Law

        How do you know everyone else acts the same way? I've certainly come across downvoted thank-you nodes, and sometimes downvoted them myself (for various reasons outside them being thank-yous). Most of the time, though, I don't vote on them at all (although I do appreciate the gesture).

        Makeshifts last the longest.

        I find it very polite to let people know that you have read and appreciated their answers.

        That agreed, I prefer to edit my own post to include a "Thank you". Better still saying what was most helpful and why.

        Cheerio, Sören

Re: No more XP for voting!
by borisz (Canon) on Sep 24, 2004 at 14:16 UTC
    You get better by reading nodes, so why not get XP for it sometimes. Also even if you get XP for downvoting this is not wrong. Some nodes are really bad. Beside that someone already counted down vs upvotes and upvotes are far far more as downvotes do a supersearch.
    Boris
Re: No more XP for voting!
by talexb (Canon) on Sep 24, 2004 at 15:32 UTC

    Again, this seems to be a solution looking for a problem.

    To rephrase, you have suggested changes to this community without suggesting a logical basis for the changes.

    Life's too short to pick apart your post, line by line. If you hate visiting this community, stop visiting. If you like this community but have some quibbles about how it operates, become a useful member and make some constructive criticisms.

    And cheer up. Please.

    Alex / talexb / Toronto

    "Groklaw is the open-source mentality applied to legal research" ~ Linus Torvalds

    Update: Changed 'operators' to 'operates'.

Re: No more XP for voting!
by jacques (Priest) on Sep 24, 2004 at 13:31 UTC
    It would be nice if the XP and voting system were optional. In other words, sometimes I wish I didn't have to know my XP score and see the radio buttons everywhere. I don't feel like participating in the XP/voting system and that is my choice. But Perl Monks doesn't give me this option, since there's no way of not knowing your XP score.

    If someone wants to use the Everything Engine for their own site, then they should be forced to use a voting system, too. (But I speak from unexperience.)

      There is a way to hide the voting checkboxes and reputations with css. For example, add

      div.reputation { display: none } div.vote { display: none }
      to the "On-Site CSS Markup" in your User Settings. You might need some other css commands to also hide them from other places, such as NodesYouWrote etc, or hide the "Vote" button.
        That's good. But it would be better if it was automated with a On/Off button in user settings.

        The button would be simpler than adding the CSS. (And its presence would make people aware that they could hide these things)

Re: No more XP for voting!
by hossman (Prior) on Sep 24, 2004 at 19:51 UTC
    25% chance of gaining 2 +1/4 number of available votes for your level XP points once a day if you were logged in within the past 24 hours from when the vote fairy does the rounds.

    That one line is by far the worst suggestion I've ever heard for revamping XP

    Saints get 40 votes a day, so we should have a %25 change of getting 12 XP a day just for showing up?

    I personally don't mind the XP you get for voting ... it's a way of contributing to the community that anyone and everyone can do. if you want to lower the percentage fine, but don't take away the incentive to contribute.

Re: No more XP for voting!
by CountZero (Bishop) on Sep 24, 2004 at 20:56 UTC
    Maybe 1/4 of an XP for each vote on the average is a bit much, certainly for the higher levels. Perhaps some decreasing scale might balance it more.

    Giving 2 +1/4 number of available votes for your level XP points once a day just for logging in, seems a bit overdone as well, if you ask me.

    It would be too easy to automate that.

    Other suggestions:

    • put a daily limit on the number of XP you can gain by methods other than people voting on your nodes;
    • do not show immediately the XP gains when they happen, but build it into the Fairy's routines.

    CountZero

    "If you have four groups working on a compiler, you'll get a 4-pass compiler." - Conway's Law

Re: No more XP for voting!
by Aristotle (Chancellor) on Sep 26, 2004 at 15:14 UTC

    It is pretty presumptuous to present your conclusions as fact and derive a suggestion from them like that. You did not back up any of your claims. Here are the things I'd expect to see in a rational, methodically supported argument.

    1. Many monks vote just for their own XP

      Provide proof of this.

      Everyone can see that on Front page.

      Explain how. Avoid handwaving in doing so.

    2. Writing a single good node once a day already gains you at least as much XP as casting all your votes (even for a saint with 40 votes). Explain how and why that does or does not affect your argument.

    3. Explain why the current situation is broken and how your proposition would improve it. Expound on how your proposed changes will affect the various motivations for voting or not voting extant in the current system. Make sure to examine your idea in the context of voting as a potential contribution to the site.

    Makeshifts last the longest.