This is a call to the fans of "Perl 6" to please go start your own monastery, or website, at least, and stop cluttering up these halls with posts about your new pastime.

Yes, I know I am free to choose whether to read or not to read whatever article I don't like. But it's not about how I, or any established programmer, feels about "Perl 6" (not even about how it is likely to shrink further the limited opportunities to earn a living practicing a craft I've spent half a lifetime improving).

The problem I have with allowing these "Perl 6" promos here is that it creates confusion for novice programmers who come to the monastery hoping to learn how to program in Perl, and fills their path to knowledge with obstacles, red herrings and irrelevancies.

The same sad situation can be encountered when you visit http://blogs.perl.org, and apparently even the Perl Foundation spends its money on promoting "Perl 6" at conferences. (Apparently TPF has changed the emblem of the real Perl to a dinosaur; that sure helps!)

This is, of course, the most unfortunate thing about "Perl 6" the hobby -- that people who don't know better conflate it with Perl, the working and wildly successful programming language. While there's not much we can do about that overall, we can certainly avoid exacerbating the problem by publishing "Perl News" and "Meditations" about Perl's 'mortal enemy,' as DAGolden recently judged it.

To the "Perl 6" fans I say: stand on your own two feet and quit using the established culture of Perl, and this monastery, to try to popularize your hobby and land-grab your piece of the upcoming "Perl 6" gold rush (*cough*).

Among the defining characteristics of a successful and long-lasting monastic order -- even a liberal one, even one dedicated to the social good -- are cohesiveness and unity of purpose. A house divided against itself cannot stand, as a wise man once said. It's fine for a small band of dissatisfied brethren to go off and develop a new denomination: knock yourselves out, but please don't forget the first half of that process!

The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
  • Comment on Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by Corion (Pope) on Feb 07, 2016 at 08:28 UTC

    To be honest, I haven't seen any Perl 6 replies to questions asked on Perl 5, so I'm not sure where you get the "division" from.

    I think the past has shown that things happening in Perl 6 land also tend to influence decisions that apply to Perl 5, in the sense that Perl 5 usually adapts the things seen as beneficial for its own purposes. So I'm not convinced that announcements of teachings about Perl 6 are to be banned here, either.

      I decided to join PM this week as I keep coming back here for various questions. Same thing for me, I cannot recall a thread where a Perl6 solution was presented to a problem that confused me. I might have ignored it though since Perl6 has not been that interesting to me.

      I mean the division in purpose, in functionality, of this website (which is a sort of microcosm of the same thing happening in the broader Perl world). Mostly talking about the domination of the "Perl News" [sic] category here (as well as, off-site, for example, blogs.perl.org, the TPF presence at FOSDEM that I pointed out, the Perl Weekly content, the content of talks at the YAPCs, etc.).

      If I were a newb and I consulted the "Perl News" section (or any of the entry points to the Perl world listed above) I might easily conclude that "Perl 6" is where it is at, among the PerlMonks, anyway.

      (Edit: I do note, however, that http://perlnews.org, linked from the http://perl.org front page, has not been updated since April 16, 2015 ... perhaps the barriers to publication there are higher?)

      I can see the motivation to conflate "Perl 6" with Perl on the part of the hobbyists, who would like to get more people involved in their thing. But for a monastery that exists to provide opportunities to teach and learn Perl, I see no benefit to such conflation. Rather I see an obligation to deobfuscate the issue, and provide clarity for novice and experienced monks who come here expecting to read about Perl.

      "News" articles recounting someone's adventures in learning or hacking Ruby or Go or Node.js are not considered appropriate for publishing on this site. Despite "Perl 6"'s historical roots in Perl, it is one of that group (other languages), not Perl, and I don't think it's any more appropriate here than they are.

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by Your Mother (Archbishop) on Feb 07, 2016 at 05:14 UTC

    Liking—or taking an interest in—both is actually the opposite of divisive.

    Also, dinosaurs rule and it’s JS that is likely to toss the final shovels of dirt, not Perl6.

      ++, especially for "dinosaurs rule".

      Yes, but, can we really shrug this off easily just like that? This could be pretty serious, I mean, if the Perl 6 commies are trying to poison our well? Do we not have a duty to our Monastery, to uphold, to maintain, to protect the Purity Of Essence?

Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by iguanodon (Priest) on Feb 07, 2016 at 21:35 UTC
    Well I disagree. Perl 5 and Perl 6 are sister languages. If I can learn as much from this site about Perl 6 as I did about Perl 5 I'll be a better developer. Even if I never use Perl 6 on the job.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by stevieb (Canon) on Feb 08, 2016 at 23:48 UTC
    I feel that for the longevity of PerlMonks, we should allow Perl6 questions and discussions here. After all, as many Monks have stated, there are features in P6 that have been ported to P5, so some of it is inherent in the code we write already.

    I understand your frustration, and in some ways I agree. However, I woke up this morning, and I think there were only three questions that were less than 24 hours old. If we stay status-quo and become stagnant, we risk ending up like Myspace or similar. Perl isn't dying, but it's definitely being overtaken.

    Personally, I went down a P6 ride because of expert P5 programmers work on P6 I spotted in their PM sigs (moritz for one) years ago. Now that's not a valid reason, but honoring those folk who may have moved away from PM because of a perceived lack of support is.

    My desire is to keep PM my primary source for learning about, and sharing my knowledge of all things Perl... if necessary, from v1.0 through vx.x. We always have the option to consider an edit to add a "Perl6: " type prefix to a post if one feels it necessary.

      Well said!

Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by soonix (Canon) on Feb 08, 2016 at 00:29 UTC
    You certainly have heard about TIMTOWTDI (which is in my opinion a highly political statement). So, possibly you did choose the best way, but you won't be sure about that if you don't care for the other ways.

    Well, and now1, TIMTOP. Even if you were not consciously aware of the fact, but "more than one way" already could include the choice of the programming language. I see this as one reason why you can find also sound answers about non-Perl-languages here in the monastery.

    1 although, you already could interpret 5.8 (which seems still in use) and 5.22 (and those in between) as different Perls
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by u65 (Chaplain) on Feb 08, 2016 at 00:04 UTC

    As a long-time Perl user and now a Perl 6 advocate, part of me agrees with you, and part does not. I certainly have seen lots of snide comments about Perl 6 here, but my impression is that most old Perl monks live and let live. Maybe the split or not split should be the subject of the next poll!

Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by salva (Canon) on Feb 10, 2016 at 11:11 UTC
    IMO, the reason why Perl6 has to go to a different monastery is because it deserves it.

    For people trying to learn Perl6, looking for information here would be an impossible task. Any search would bring back a sea of information about irrelevant Perl5 solutions.

      IMO, the reason why Perl6 has to go to a different monastery is because it deserves it

      I think there's merit in that POV, though I'd put it a little differently:

      IMO, the reason why Perl6 should go to a different monastery is because that's what any self-respecting Perl6 devotee would insist upon.
      (I haven't yet determined what, if anything, I think Perl6 "deserves" :-)

      This is historically (and actually) a Perl5 website, and anyone who makes a post re Perl6 without signifying that it's related to Perl6 would also be showing disrespect to this forum.
      But I've no objection to Perl6 (or other OT posts) being made here as long as they are marked appropriately in the subject line.
      There's frequently something of interest to be found in such posts.

      The shit will *really* hit the fan when flames about "Perl5 posts are no longer acceptable" start appearing here ;-)

      Cheers,
      Rob
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by woolfy (Chaplain) on May 31, 2018 at 09:01 UTC
    So, 1nickt, you didn't just once complain about TPF funding some Perl 6 things, but you've been repeating that. Just found this 'gem'... ' and apparently even the Perl Foundation spends its money on promoting "Perl 6" at conferences.'

    I told you elsewhere, and tell you again (and you already know, I just want this reply to be here on record): TPF did not do that funding. That money came from lizmat and me. We gave money to TPF and EPO and Mark Keating to enable them to do this promotion. I am that person who has been ordering stickers and buttons and tuits and more. And not just Perl 6, also Perl 5. Actually, looking at number of different items, more Perl 5 than Perl 6. and apparently even the Perl Foundation spends its money on promoting "Perl 6" at conferences.

    The thing that you explicitly mention, http://blogs.perl.org/users/shadowcat_mdk/assets_c/2016/02/20160130_085351-thumb-500x281-2297.jpg , well, that is a banner with the Camelia butterfly logo that was ordered and paid for by lizmat and me. It was at FOSDEM, and lizmat and I rented a van and filled it with a lot of Perl-swag (including a lot of Perl 5 stuff, such as Perl 5 books), and we transported the banner there ourselves.

    As you can see, you are wrong about several things. You probably are wrong also about how bad and evil Perl 6 is.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by jmlynesjr (Chaplain) on Feb 08, 2016 at 03:15 UTC

    If nothing else, segregate the Perl 6 stuff under it's own top level tab.

    James

    There's never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over...

        Sometimes, if people keep on asking for something, they have a point.

        A separate section on PerlMonks would not do though. GET YOUR OWN NAME!

        Jenda
        Enoch was right!
        Enjoy the last years of Rome.

      Separate but equal, eh? I like the cut of your jib!

Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Feb 11, 2016 at 02:09 UTC

    I wouldn't ban Perl6; but then I'd be a whole heck've a lot freer about what constitutes an on topic discussion here.

    We don't want people posting recipes, or links to cat vids or product promos; but there is much that is indirectly related to Perl, and programmers using Perl for all or part of work that it seems would be a) helpful to many; b) interesting to many; c) instructive to many; d) useful in keeping this place alive.

    I will register my dismay & frustration, even anger, at the deliberate dead-ending of the Perl 5 line. But that boat sunk 13 years ago :(


    With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
    Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
    "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". I knew I was on the right track :)
    In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by Arunbear (Prior) on Feb 23, 2016 at 11:52 UTC
    The data below (kindly provided by Corion) shows a definite downward trend in participation at PerlMonks. This is why some monks are in favour of being more liberal about what content we accept here.

      Hi Arunbear,

      We could also open up our Monastery to discussion about the Kardashians, if all we want is to increase traffic.

      There are many reasons that contribute to the decline in participation on a venerable site like PerlMonks. I manage another site (sailing-related), that, like PerlMonks, was way ahead of its time and, in the early 2000s, grabbed a huge share of people interested in the site's theme. Like PerlMonks, it had superlative content and functioned exceptionally well. For many years it was *the* go-to site for the topic.

      Now, like PerlMonks, the numbers are trending down, down. The most important reasons have to do with (a) the rest of the internet catching up, and (b) changing demographics, more than with anything else. The quality of the archived information, and of the answers to new questions, has not declined at all. But unlike in 2001, there are now multiple sites offering the same information, and some of them even function better. So now we are no longer the go-to site, but one among many, and in some ways, a little dated. And the cadre of sailors/monks has aged, some moving on, and has not been replaced with an equal number of younger members.

      So, yes, we could dilute and even abandon the mission of the Monastery, in order to get more traffic. But another approach would be to try to address the causes for the decline, to the degree possible. One way to do this could be updating the look and feel of the site, so that a potential new user, most likely a "millenial", in the 15 seconds s/he considers the site, quite possibly on a mobile device, is enticed to hang around, rather than feeling like s/he accidentally stumbled into the Wayback Machine.

      And if the decline continues, well, so be it. I for one would rather have this Monastery decline in traffic but maintain its quality and value as a source of learning about Perl, than to increase numbers at the cost of hosting a bunch of crufty content, that might be related to Perl on some spectrum of relativity, but is not actually about Perl.

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by u65 (Chaplain) on Feb 08, 2016 at 12:57 UTC

    Maybe we should seek the thoughts of the head monk of both Perls.

      His thoughts when he gave birth to Perl and the Perl community?

      From the 2nd "State of the Onion" (Monterey, 1998):

      "Now the thing about the onion is that it teaches me something about my own importance. Or lack thereof. Namely, that while I may have started all this, I'm still a little bit of the onion. Most of the mass is in the outer layers. (That's why I like to see grassroots movements like the Perl Mongers springing up.) But here I sit in the middle. I get a bit of honor for my historical significance, and you sit here patiently listening to me talk about the oddest things, but in actual fact, most people see the outside of the onion, not the inside. Unless they make onion rings. But even then, the bigger rings have more to them than the smaller rings. Let that be a lesson to those of you who wish to be "inner ringers". That's not where the real power is. Not in this movement, anyway."

      Link: http://www.wall.org/~larry/onion/onion.html

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by u65 (Chaplain) on Feb 11, 2016 at 15:05 UTC

    I tried yesterday to buy the domain "perl6monks.org" but, unsurprisingly, it's already been taken.

      Wow, I tried it in my browser, but got redirected to Google search for
      site:perlmonks.org ("perl 6" OR perl6) -intitle:Re
      ($q=q:Sq=~/;[c](.)(.)/;chr(-||-|5+lengthSq)`"S|oS2"`map{chr |+ord }map{substrSq`S_+|`|}3E|-|`7**2-3:)=~y+S|`+$1,++print+eval$q,q,a,

        A whois search shows it as a private registration. With the redirect I assume it is owned by the owner of perlmonks.org (Perl Foundation), but that's just a guess.

      Hmm. Perhaps you'll have to use a different name.

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by stevieb (Canon) on Feb 10, 2016 at 23:36 UTC
    Nick, I think you should open this as an official poll... How do I create a Poll? with no bullshit, joke-type answers... straight up yes or no: Should PM allow Perl6 questions/discussions.
      > open this as an official poll

      With which consequence?

      In the end it's the decision of the crowd who keeps PM up and running.

      My contribution here was minor yet, but personally I would stop if 6 (or other technologies) got banned!°

      The admins here are neither elected nor payed by a democratic po(ll)pulace, they do it for fun.

      Careful when damaging the foundations of that building.

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

      update

      °) if I was into "there is only one way to do it" I would already be singing in the python choir.

      Thank you for the suggestion, stevieb, but I'm not sure a poll would be any more useful than this thread, or any more useful than a poll about whether @lwall should change the name of "Perl 6" to something else. In neither case are we dealing with a democracy, and in this case, the gods know what has been said.

      Personally, I think that this thread has unsurprisingly strayed, as would a poll, from the strict question of whether "Perl 6" should be housed elsewhere than this monastery, and reflects people's broader feelings about it, or its name at least. Anyway, however one wants to interpret the discussion, I will share, fwiw, that my OP has received the following votes as of this time:

      upvotes: 25 downvotes: 21
      Pretty even, and when you take into account the many monks who have viewed the thread and abstained from voting, pretty inconclusive :-|

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by CoVAX (Beadle) on Mar 02, 2016 at 05:56 UTC

    This reminds me of C vs. C++, which I have to say: I don't think C++ would have gotten traction without its C capability.

    Similarly for Perl 5 and Perl 6--if Larry had named the latter something besides Perl I don't think it would have gotten traction.

    Searched for donut and crumpit. Found donate and stumbit instead.
      if Larry had named the latter something besides Perl I don't think it would have gotten traction.
      • There was no predecessor to Go, but it has traction.
      • There was no predecessor to Dart, but it has traction.
      • Swift " " " ...
      • Rust " " " ...

      Plus, there are innumerable ways that the Perl association could have been retained without closing off the door to Perl5's future.


      With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". I knew I was on the right track :)
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

      Similarly for Perl 5 and Perl 6--if Larry had named the latter something besides Perl I don't think it would have gotten traction.

      the mustache provided all the traction necessary, and given the timeline very little traction was required

Re: Find your own monastery: "Perl 6" is not Perl, and Perl is not a Dinosaur
by Anonymous Monk on Feb 08, 2016 at 13:12 UTC
    So sad to see the man that created Perl and with it the Perl community, deliberately go out of his way to rip it apart.

    His stubborn insistence that his new language is just the latest version of the old one has done for Perl. Not just Perl 5 but Perl in all its forms is done for.

    Condemned, by the deliberate and malicious-aforethought, to a slow, inexorable decline into the niche of languages kept alive by those old enough to remember how to use them.

    Perhaps the saddest thing in life is living to witness the genius of youth become the twisted bitterness of old age.

      In 1994, Perl 5 ripped up Perl 4.

      In 1997, Perl 6 was announced. At the time, I was excited. (But then, I was still just a youngster.)

      Almost 19 years later (and about 22 years after Perl 5.0.0), Perl 6 was released.

      Since then, Perl 5 has become far far more deeply established than Perl 4 (or 3, 2, or 1). There's a lot more history to rip apart.

      Perhaps Perl 6 should have been called something else, but like it's predecessor, it always was intended to replace it's predecessor. Maybe if Perl 6 development had taken only the few years Larry had thought it would take, things would have been less contentious.

      From Perl 5's perspective, it would have been better to not reserve version 6, as Perl 5 has been burdened by still being version 5.x, so has the appearance of being very outdated.

      Even what is now Perl 6 would have benefited from not reserving 6. It's been over 28 years since Perl 1 was released. Meanwhile, in 12 years, Fire Fox is at 44, and Chrome is at 47 after only 6 years.

      Perhaps if, after the 5 (or even 10) year mark, Perl 6 had been renamed Perl++ or Perl-NG (or similar variant), the taint of obsolescence could have been shaken off by both projects.

      Both are worthy languages. I hope both will have at least a decent life.

        Good Programmers (like all of us here, right? ;-) know this rule of thumb: You don't tie a feature to a product version number during development! Too many places where I've worked, where the project lead wasn't really a Good Programmer, they used a branching scheme which declared that we shall branch for each release at the beginning of development for that release. That's fine when a "release" is one or two sprints long; but longer than that, and you inevitably run into this same situation: Feature X was supposed to go into Release V, but now we have to slip it to Release W... and now our branch is all whacked up.

        For @larry to think that "main-line perl development can't possibly go so far as to need a new major version number before this new successor language is ready for release" reminds me an awful lot of the folly of "No one will ever need more than 640k" and such like as.

        I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.