Executive Order 42-666:

Discuss! :)

Cheers Rolf
(addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
Je suis Charlie!

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again! -- suggestions and dreams
by Discipulus (Abbot) on Jan 30, 2017 at 08:25 UTC
    Hello LanX, lazy sunday? ;=)

    If you are suggesting to build a firewall to block mexicans requests I do not agree.. ;=)

    Ok now seriously: I think my dear site, my only net place, need some rearrangemets. Not for me, but mostly for newcomers and young peoples arriving here. The site must be a little bit more friendly in the daily usage.

    Between features I'd like to have here at PM i'd mention:

    • improved readabilty for mobile users
    • improved node composition with even minimal set of shortcut for html approved tags
    • renewed tutorial section to build up in next years with a Modern perspective
    • improved security
    • a wider group of moderators to prevent chat flaming and spam nodes
    • a bigger space limit for post and private pages (at least for high level monks)
    • the ability to show who is speaking (Discipulus lvl 17 since 2002 average posts XP 9 last year 11 as I already suggested)
    • the possibility of automatically conceil wrong answers (leaving the possibility of to review them)

    i think the best way to achieve the above is a complete rewrite of the code base: it is a big work I'm not able to do: so who can do such a big work? we can also collect some money to pay at pizza&beer rate someone of us but even if someone offer himself there are many downside:

    • The owner of the actual site (estimated vroom?) must agree
    • How to choose the developer group?
    • How to choose the roadmap?
    • this eventual project must run in parallel with the existing one
    • the huge historical database must migrated accordingly

    Even if this become feasible with have to not alter the nature of PM doing this. I'm especially thinking about:

    • the freedom to express himself even if in disaccord with the majority of the community
    • the somehow vintage appeal must be preserved: it is a monastery not a disco
    • the XP system it is not perfect, but I think it is better to leave it unchanged

    L*

    There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
    Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.

      STFU and start writing code

      Here I'll start

      Run this on localhost, tweak the way you like, route everything to perlmonks eventually (lwpmechanizebridge), repeat, post what you have

      First step might be inline this work correctly into your local mojo interface to perlmonks, and share that, maybe on perlmonks or in a public gist, and keep tweaking it, and keep tweaking it, and keep tweaking

      Second might be inline the html preview so the rendering is done in mojo and it doesn't take a round trip to perlmonks to get the basics

      Third might work on the WYSYWYG editor (the bootstrap should have something)

      Fourt would be get the websocket chatterbox working, should be "easy" with a few simple jquery hooks, lots of examples around Mojolicious::Lite +and jQuery +AJAX + Mojo::Template, Mojolicious, layouts and content generating., Re: Functionality to automatically insert <readmore> tags into long posts? (naturally)..Everything::tagApprove..framechat ....

      So there you have it, settle on route layout, make the stubs, improve, improve, improve, improve ...

      If the gods like it , let them put it under perlmonks.org/clown/, switch the lwpmechanize bridge for appropriate api calls

      If they dont like it, run it locally yourself, tweak it locally yourself ... add database backend instead of lwpmechanizebridge and make your own perlmonks, invite everybody

      stop talking about it start already, that is all there is to it

        why so much hate? if I had your abilities probably I would have already done what you depict.

        I can propose my suggestions and dreams but my limited Perl web development skill (stucked at old CGI times) does not let me to go much further; sadly.

        Anyway nothing give you the right to use rude acronyms against me.

        I'll bookmark your post as compendium of possible ways to modify PM user experience - even if rude and incivil

        Hoping I'll never meet you in RL

        Sincerely

        L*

        There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
        Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.
Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again!
by wjw (Priest) on Jan 29, 2017 at 18:17 UTC

    PerlMonks is great. Much like our county, the world of programming has and is shifting and changing. This issue is not so much PerlMonks as it is Perl itself. Furthermore, Perl as a language is not a problem either so much as the attention that Perl does not get.

    As I read through various applicable articles both in print and on line, languages such as Python are prevalent. In my opinion, the Perl community at large needs to actively promote Perl. I am not a marketing specialist, so have no specific suggestions for how that can be done, but I believe that it could be dome based on the incredible capabilities of Perl, it's continued active development, and the volume of Perl already in use.

    PerlMonks is what it is; A community, an incredible resource, and a place for learning. It is exactly what it should be. I suppose that one can say that there is always room for improvement, but that can be said for anything. The question would be; Is there something wrong with PerlMonks?


    --- I don't think so----.

    If anything, I think it would help a bit if the rift between the Perl 5 and Perl 6 folks was a bit less divisive at times. I personally have no interest in the newer Perl, so it is not an issue for me. But some of the commentary here get a bit heated. I don't think it is necessary . But that is just me.

    I am certainly not at the forefront of the Perl community, nor a great programmer, nor exceptionally informed. But I do keep track of my favorite language and use it almost exclusively. And from that exposure I base my response here.

    ...the majority is always wrong, and always the last to know about it...

    A solution is nothing more than a clearly stated problem...

      I'm talking about PerlMonks not Perl.

      ("First we take Manhattan then we take Berlin" ... Leonard Cohen )

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

        The two are not unrelated. How many people start using PerlMonks who do not use Perl? (I know there are a few folks still kicking around here who no longer use Perl, but I'm talking about first-timers to the site.)

        As mentioned below in another users post, I see the health of Perl and PerlMonks as tightly coupled. There is really little to be complained about when it comes to PerlMonks. It is a great resource, compelling in many ways, and encompasses all the characteristics of a community, both good and bad.

        Perl is a mature language, and as with all things: Familiarity breeds contempt. Or at least dismissive-ness. Newer languages tend to generate more attention, and if the language is reasonably functional and familiar in syntax, it will be around for a while.

        I would not be surprised if Perl has a Renaissance at some point. But maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part.

        But back to the main point, Perl and PerlMonks are inter-dependent as I see it. One will usually follow the other with some hysteresis between their independent trends.

        ...the majority is always wrong, and always the last to know about it...

        A solution is nothing more than a clearly stated problem...

Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again!
by marto (Cardinal) on Jan 30, 2017 at 10:06 UTC

    So this is why you bought all those red caps? If this is a serious call to arms to improve the site I think the opening post could benefit from editing for clarity. While I've not seen it I'm aware that PM is based upon a fork of the everything engine, and this isn't as straight forward as modern frameworks many people are familiar with. I think that this and the learning curve involved will be a factor in gathering willing developers with sufficient time to spare. One (relatively) easy win would be to use lets encrypt via one of the scripts available and a cron job to maintain certificates for the domains, along with the appropriate web server rewrite rules. Currently versions of Chrome (and I suspect Firefox also) display warnings in the address bar that the site is not secure due.

      > If this is a serious call to arms to improve the site I think the opening post could benefit from editing for clarity.

      140 characters - twitter rules! ;)

      > I think that this and the learning curve involved will be a factor in gathering willing developers with sufficient time to spare.

      Depends on the priorities.

      My idea of the best return of investment is to pump up CSS and JS in a way that would let a new PM look so much better - like e.g. MetaCPAN does in comparison to CPAN.

      Tobyink already did a nice proof of concept.

      So what's missing is not only a team which drives this forward, but also a perspective from the gods to allow changes if they meet certain quality measures.

      It's understandable that an admin doesn't want to add more code on top of a pile of unmaintainable code.

      That's why we need to define goals and criteria to improve in a maintainable way.

      YMMV, but I think it's a question of project management.

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

        Taking the liberty to speak for the gods -- or at least for myself, if not -- We're quite happy to support any efforts to improve the site's UX, within certain constraints:

        • it can't break "backward compatibility"; that is, members who want their experience to remain unchanged should not be impacted at all.
        • it can't significantly impact performance. that is, having a slicker UI can't come at the cost of 10x page load times, for example.
        • it can be done within the framework of the existing engine. among other things, that means that any new "code" must not require access to, or to live on, the filesystem. "Everything is a node", i.e. it lives in the database. (There could be very limited allowances made, possibly.)
        • possibly others.

        I'm quite gung ho about this myself, and would probably have already done a lot of what people are demanding except that my web dev chops are meager.
        I keep trying to recruit js/ajax/jquery/node/frobnitz experts to come in and work some magic, but so far none have stepped forward.
        Consider this another appeal. :-)
        Of course, there's a learning curve, whichever side one approaches from. Be assured that I stand ready to mentor anyone who wants to bring their web dev chops and is willing to learn how the pm engine works.
        But as you imply, it would be good to have a plan, an outline of what we hope to achieve.

        Releated: Please see my recent post, Development of PerlMonks "Mobile" is now open for business.

        It's understandable that an admin doesn't want to add more code on top of a pile of unmaintainable code.

        But that's exactly how Perl[Monks] became the glorious mess of awesomeness that it is!

        I reckon we are the only monastery ever to have a dungeon stuffed with 16,000 zombies.
Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again!
by huck (Prior) on Jan 29, 2017 at 17:00 UTC

    Why do you think it isnt great now?

      It is great - at least for us who already live in this echo chamber.

      But when it started in ~ 2000 it was (more than) awesome

      We are stagnating in the middle ages of Web and becoming more and more cryptic for newcomers.

      Just count the rolling eyes when PM is mentioned at Perl workshops.

      I have a vision but I want to hear more ideas.

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

      PS intended to be a mediation but the rules say monkdiscuss is appropriate.

        Just count the rolling eyes when PM is mentioned at Perl workshops.

        Have you inquired why the eyes roll?


        With the rise and rise of 'Social' network sites: 'Computers are making people easier to use everyday'
        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority". The enemy of (IT) success is complexity.
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.

      It isn't about what he thinks; reading into the proposal the themes suggested by a prior user, it's about what he's running for.

      Does PM have a title more exalted than Pope?


      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. Juvenal, Satires
        You got it, I'm running for purl presidency! oO

        (and they say Germans have no sense of humour...)

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
        Je suis Charlie!

        PS : LanX for POPUS!

Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again!
by perldigious (Priest) on Jan 30, 2017 at 14:08 UTC

    Ask not how you can make PerlMonks great for you, but how you can make yourself great for PerlMonks!

    <sarcasm>

    Maybe you should build a firewall to keep out all those damn foreigners! Wait, if you're German, and you're the new Perl President, then you would be trying to block everyone who is outside the EU because they would be the foreigners... Boo! #neverLanX

    LanX is literally the next Jeffrey Eisenach! And I have it on good authority that he was involved in a huge phishing scandal in Russia! The Kremlin has video evidence they are bribing him with to become their Puppet President of Perl! #notfakenews

    </sarcasm>

    UPDATE: Added the <sarcasm> tags, I know sarcasm doesn't always translate in to text well and I was getting the impression people thought I was trying to be insulting. As a general rule, I go out of my way to try and never insult anyone over the internet, though I have inadvertently put my foot in my mouth (in my keyboard?) in attempts at humor. I figure any insult worth giving is worth giving in person... it's just common courtesy. :-)

    Just another Perl hooker - Yes, I'll do really dirty code, but I charge extra.
      > Added the <sarcasm> tags

      Explaining sarcasm?

      You are fired!

        Nooooooo! I can do better and win bigly sir! I can make ALL the profits! I can get ALL the ratings! I can drain ALL the swamps! I guarantee it will be yuge!

        Just another Perl hooker - Yes, I'll do really dirty code, but I charge extra.
Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again!
by afoken (Canon) on Feb 05, 2017 at 19:34 UTC

    I know I'm a little bit late for the party, but how about fixing old security bugs first? Before messing with the UI or adding rarely useful features?

    Alexander

    --
    Today I will gladly share my knowledge and experience, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so". ;-)
Re: Let's Make PerlMonks Great Again! -- font size
by Discipulus (Abbot) on May 23, 2017 at 08:40 UTC
    I was sure to have posted this suggestion in this thread, but evidently my memory is failing.. so I post it now:

    It would be possible to automatically decrease font size for posts with votes below -1? with step of 5 votes: so for posts from infinite votes to -1 normal font; for posts from -2 to -6 smaller fonts, for posts from -7 to -11 smaller-smaller fonts, and so on.

    I dunno if this is feasible with tha actual engine that runs PerlMonks but i think can be an improvement to be forced to hit CTRL++ many times to see some eventual crap mmh.. unuseful content.

    L*

    There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
    Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.
      You mean in general or posts where you've voted already?

      If the latter, you could use JS for it, because it's easily accessible in the DOM of RAT:

      <span class="nnt-reputation">5</span>

      You can also mark the nodes you personally downvoted in your RAT Style Settings

      .nnt-line-minusminus { color:red; }

      Otherwise it's PM policy not to reveal the other votes before you voted yourself.

      OTOH most negative posts are already listed in Worst Nodes.

      So it's rather a political question...

      As a practical solution, you can chose those users from Worst Nodes which annoy you the most and filter them by ID ...

      EDIT: see Re: Blocking users

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
      Je suis Charlie!

        I mean in general, to make less evident bad content.

        > Otherwise it's PM policy not to reveal the other votes before you voted yourself.

        This is not exactly true infact, as you said Worst Nodes Monthly Best and Weekly Best if not giving the number of votes, already show something on nodes you didnt voted yet.

        In the same way, and probably more effective, lowering the fonts for nodes below -1 can be something useful for newcomers and unwary: imagine reading a long thread and having all the flame, the polemic and the nonsense with smaller fonts.. ahh noise reduction!

        L*

        There are no rules, there are no thumbs..
        Reinvent the wheel, then learn The Wheel; may be one day you reinvent one of THE WHEELS.