RE: RE:(7) Reputation Viewing Option?

[KM]

lets just say that they aren't part of 5, or 7, or 20, or any other large number that makes them irrelevant.

I see what you are saying, but Mr. Yuk is worth a thousand words! Or, all negative number posts have their negative number shown. I don't think showing the actual number for positive votes is needed. "Oh, this one must be useless since it only has a rep of 1", "This one with 15 votes must be correct", "Hmmm.. one 10 and five 3's. The 10 has to be better" are things I believe people would think, which would not be conducive to them learning. How?

Because I believe the actual reps are influenced by author (we know of strange --'s for no good reason. I wouldn't be surprised if some are ++'d because of the author). And, more importantly, when a new user comes and sees a +15, s/he may ignore the +2's which could be answers of better caliber. Posts are judged on their own, not in relation to other posts in the thread, so later posts may not get the attention that those posted within an hour get, but be just as valuable. Simply knowing that people think it is a good, useful node should be enough and not form any bias.

So we could jump through all these hoops, including making those star levels relative to account for the vote inflation as PM becomes more popular

What hoops? Putting a little icon next to a post title? Seems like it is simply a nice visual way to help see possibly valuable posts, without seeing the actual rep. Why would we want a 'not vote' option? I would never use it, it would be a waste of a vote (especially for those in lower levels). My suggested solutions are only trying to help new users to Perl, and this site. Sorting and visual cues can really help someone find what they are looking for with more ease. Giving Yet Another Voting Option will not do this.

Cheers,
KM

[swiftone]

I see what you are saying, but Mr. Yuk is worth a thousand words! Or, all negative number posts have their negative number shown. I don't think showing the actual number for positive votes is needed. "Oh, this one must be useless since it only has a rep of 1", "This one with 15 votes must be correct", "Hmmm.. one 10 and five 3's. The 10 has to be better" are things I believe people would think, which would not be conducive to them learning. How?

Yup, people will think different things. Let them. Frankly, _I'd_ think a 10 is better than a 2, unless the 2 was too new to have gotten votes.

And, more importantly, when a new user comes and sees a +15, s/he may ignore the +2's which could be answers of better caliber.

If they are answers of better caliber, the rest of us Monks haven't done our job. What is the voting system for, after all?

What hoops? Putting a little icon next to a post title?

Coming up with a sliding scale for the icons that adjusts for vote inflation over time (a post made now will tend to have a larger absolute value than a post in March). Basically you're going to a lot of effort to communicate the rep without communicating it. Simplicity.

Why would we want a 'not vote' option? I would never use it, it would be a waste of a vote (especially for those in lower levels). Because it allows you to see the rep, but not allow the rep to influence your voting. Personally I'd use it a lot. There was a question about the XML modules a few days ago, with some answers saying somewhat contradictory things. I didn't vote, because I couldn't say which was right, but it would have been interesting/helpful to future learning if I had known which vote was ranked higher by my fellow Monks. Eventually I intend to play with the XML modules, and having a better idea of what is recommended gets me started.

As for waste of a vote, that's arguable. Perhaps it doesn't count against your vote totals. But this can be argued out if/when the system is adopted.

The main problem with your "visual cue" is that it works against what you (and others) so vigorously argued: That allowing the voter to know the rep would influence the vote (Personally I disagree, but I've conceded the point because of the large number of Monks saying so).

So if we say that

1. We shouldn't allow the rep to be known before a vote is cast
2. There are times when you (or at least me, and presumably others) would like to know the rep, but don't have the knowledge to vote ++ or --
A logical conclusion is that you CAN learn the rep, but shouldn't be able to vote.

[tilly]

You would think that a 10 was better than a 2, wouldn't you? But it really does not seem that way.

In my posts I have lots of 10-15 posts that I regard as objectively far worse than other posts which are 1-3. But I understand the votes since the first answered points that were meant for beginners, while the latter was meant for more advanced people. I think both fit on this site. I think both are worthwhile. But the more accessible point will be more popular regardless of my notions of quality.

The lower rated ones may be more rewarding to go back and mull over though, and I know some have done exactly that.

[KM]

What is the voting system for, after all?

Best question you have had yet! What is it for? What was vrooms vision of the voting system?

There are times when you (or at least me, and presumably others) would like to know the rep, but don't have the knowledge to vote ++ or --

Why do you want to know the rep? I simply don't get it.

Anyways, I have stated my opinions, gave my ideas, and care not to argue with you. If you don't get my point by now, you never will. Y'all can sort this out without more banter from me. Enjoy your votes!

Cheers,
KM

[Boogman]

I think the problem with what your proposing is that it lets people know what other people think about a node before they vote on it. I think the general concensus has been that this is a bad thing because it might sway votes one way or another. So i think you would have to have an extra voting option one way or the other. Currently, after you vote on a node it shows the number. I think what has been suggested is something where a node would act as if you had voted for it, except the reputation wouldn't change one way or another. Perhaps visual cues would be better than the number, but I don't think we should get them before we have voted on the node, or decided that we're not going to vote on it...

[KM]

I think the problem with what your proposing is that it lets people know what other people think about a node before they vote on it.

And this is different from other proposing showing the actual rep count? I think it can be useful to know what others think about a node (for learning or voting), just not by showing the actual rep.

So i think you would have to have an extra voting option one way or the other.

Well, I think it will help people using the site zero in on what may be most helpful. The goal of the site (from my understanding) is to help people learn, not about votes, XP, and levels. This isn't a MUD, it is a learning tool.

but I don't think we should get them before we have voted on the node, or decided that we're not going to vote on it...

The first part of this statement echoes what I have said. When I decide not to vote on a node I don't want to have to vote that I don't want to vote on the node :) I simply think knowing what people are seeing as 'better' posts could be useful for people using the site to learn. Seeing the actual number is not needed to accomplish this. And, seeing a rep count to decide if you will vote on it isn't good voting practice. Why vote because of how others do? Vote on posts based on you're own opinion of that post.

Cheers,
KM

[swiftone]

I think the problem with what your proposing is that it lets people know what other people think about a node before they vote on it.

And this is different from other proposing showing the actual rep count? I think it can be useful to know what others think about a node (for learning or voting), just not by showing the actual rep.

As I have said more than once in this thread, and Boogman originally said, we're discussing having a "null vote" that shows you the rep in exchange for removing your ability to vote on the node.

but I don't think we should get them before we have voted on the node, or decided that we're not going to vote on it...

The first part of this statement echoes what I have said. When I decide not to vote on a node I don't want to have to vote that I don't want to vote on the node :) I simply think knowing what people are seeing as 'better' posts could be useful for people using the site to learn. Seeing the actual number is not needed to accomplish this. And, seeing a rep count to decide if you will vote on it isn't good voting practice. Why vote because of how others do? Vote on posts based on you're own opinion of that post.

Have you actually been reading my posts?!? I have not, and have never, been arguing that the rep should be constantly shown. All of your arguments have been against that. I have been arguing that the reputation carries some information (i.e. what the other PerlMonks think of the post), and that that information should be conditionally (i.e. sacrifice your vote) available. You've proposed star-schemes and other things that counter your initial argument (the rep shouldn't be known before voting), while ignoring the fact that the rep, as a plain simple number, can have some value. Showing the number would also enable users to pick up on the flaws of the system (e.g. vote inflation over time, etc).

I don't want to have to vote that I don't want to vote on the node :)

And we're just saying that the non-vote would be if you want to see the rep, not that every non-vote requires a actual vote.