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Re^11: Perl 6 to be renamed?

by 1nickt (Abbot)
on Aug 28, 2019 at 01:05 UTC ( #11105153=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Re^10: Perl 6 to be renamed?
in thread Perl 6 to be renamed?

Yes, I do. But I won't let illogic from figures in authority stand unchallenged.

Larry Wall folded. Liz M. folded. The lie, uhhh, "meme" that Perl and Raku are even "sister languages" is over, per the creators of that lie. The truth has won. Why won't you fold?

The way forward always starts with a minimal test.

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Re^12: Perl 6 to be renamed?
by Corion (Pope) on Aug 28, 2019 at 07:24 UTC

    Because jdporter is one of the site administrators here.

    I support the decision that this site is open for both languages Perl 5 and Perl 6 (whatever its name). There is no need for logic - simple (shared) history is enough for this site to be open to both and the renaming and spinning off of Perl 6 doesn't change that.

    If you feel that this is wrong, consider taking your misgivings elsewhere. This is not the forum for that.

      Because jdporter is one of the site administrators here

      well, that's not really a reason for not "folding". I've already given as much justification as I'm going to.

Re^12: Perl 6 to be renamed?
by haukex (Bishop) on Aug 28, 2019 at 08:30 UTC
    The lie, uhhh, "meme" that Perl and Raku are even "sister languages" is over, per the creators of that lie.

    Sorry, but what's your source on that?

    Also, there's a question implied by jdporter's question that AFAIK hasn't been addressed yet, but that I've genuinely been curious about: Why do you seem to care so much about this issue, as in, how has Perl 6 affected you directly, personally? Like, just one example might be, have you lost a job because of it? I really don't understand, but I'd like to.

      Hi Hauke, I and countless others have written at great length here and all over the place about the actual real-life employment/business effects of the years of Raku interlopers using Perl's name, resources and culture to market itself and muddy the waters for Perl itself. It's a very old, very well-documented story and I'd be surprised if you weren't aware of it.

      Update: Here's the most recent article on the topic, by ovid.

      As for your question about source, I am weary of rehashing this debate that has already been settled (except, apparently, for here), but I respect you greatly and will point out that I have already posted links and quotes from the Raku discussion that you originally linked to, where Liz M clearly states that the "sister languages" meme was damaging to both languages. She used the word "meme." The admission of damaging effects was new, but she admitted two or three years ago in a Reddit discussion that the "sister language" narrative was a deliberate fiction created to try to ameliorate the fact (which had become apparent to the world by then) that Rake was *not* a new version of Perl. She, mst, jberger and many others have written about the origin of that.

      There are thousands of working professional Perl programmers, including me, who have had to live with the confusion that a handful of bored brainy people have sowed, under the blessing of Larry Wall, for almost two decades. I work in a large corporation -- > 3,000 people -- and Perl powers all our core APIs, yet even within the company there's the "Perl is old, good for scripting" perception among managers and IT people who only know what flashes across the Reddit.

      People who say Raku is Perl do not make their living as Perl programmers.So yes, it's personal, besides the moral imperative to challenge lies and the ugliness of a cukoo stashing its egg in another bird's nest so it will raise it.

      The way forward always starts with a minimal test.
        It's a very old, very well-documented story and I'd be surprised if you weren't aware of it.

        Well, over the past years I've stayed out of the whole "Perl 5 vs. Perl 6" thing, but what I have seen is that it appears to be a quite an emotional issue for some people, which I don't really understand, partially of course because I've stayed out of it. I've only recently paid a bit closer attention because it seems to me like there might be real changes happening soon. But I also don't plan on rehashing or starting another debate.

        I'm just happy that Perl 5 and Perl 6 / Raku are IMHO both great languages, and I don't have a very strong opinion on the naming issue - if it were to stay "Perl 6", that's ok with me, although I also see the advantages of a rename to "Raku". In the end, they're just programming languages, and despite Perl being my favorite for many years, people are free to use whatever language they like. TIMTOWTDI.

        People who say Raku is Perl do not make their living as Perl programmers.

        I do have to say that statement, worded so generally, is most likely not true. So it seems more like rhetoric to me, which is something I don't agree with, and to me it also doesn't jive with the next sentence, in particular "the moral imperative to challenge lies".

        Also, you didn't really answer the actual question I was asking, but it is admittedly somewhat of a personal question, so that's fine of course.

        Anyway, the main point I wanted to make is the following - it's something that I can't tell whether you've taken into consideration. First, I hope you'll agree that it's fair to say that you've used some strong language in your advocacy, sometimes going into personal insults.

        Many of the people working on or using Perl 6 either used to be or still are active Perl 5 users and devs as well. Some people (like myself) really like Perl 6, but still use Perl 5 in their day-to-day tasks. And many of the people working more or less full-time on Perl 6 came from Perl 5. Just to name two symbolic examples, Larry Wall's Perl 6 viv was written in Perl 5, and Rakudo's (among others) is written in Perl 5.

        In other words, these "Perl 6 people" are also "Perl 5 people". They are clearly members of the Perl community, and there's more than just a couple. It follows, then, that personal attacks on Perl 6 and the people working on or with it are also attacks on members of the Perl community. In addition, several of your posts on this topic sounded to me like they have an undertone of "you're not welcome here". <update> I don't mean to come across as trying to defend for other people, some of whom might feel they don't need someone else to defend them. So let me speak for myself: At the very least, it makes me uncomfortable to watch members of the Perl community attack each other in this way, and I imagine I'm not the only one. </update>

        If you want to get a message across, I would suggest that instead of rhetoric, words like "interlopers", "cuckoos", or even harsher insults, which I don't see the necessity for in the first place, constructive criticism and reasoned arguments would get you much further (setting aside for now the question of why one might want to spend so much energy on this in the first place).

        You linked to Ovid's blog post, so let me quote that:

        ... you can try to change their mind, but be aware that when someone strongly disagrees with you, you usually want to start discussion from the points you can agree on and then slowly move to the points on which you disagree. However, that's not been the story of Perl 5/6. People disagree and immediately jump to disagreements rather than trying to find common ground.

        ... Now, despite just having said all that, I want to invite you to a Perl conference, especially if you haven't been to one yet. For example, I plan on being in Amsterdam next August. One of the things I've enjoyed is that it really feels open to everyone, and yes, even the vocal critics of one thing or another ;-) It's been great to get to know more fellow Perl people, and for me it's quickly turned into one of the highlights of the year.

        Thing is, none of that has any material bearing on whether discussion of this other "Perl-influenced" language should be allowed here.
        What haukex should have asked is: What negative impact has any P6 discussion on perlmonks had on you? (That is, just discussions of P6 itself or programming questions in that language, not meta-discussions like the present one.)
        If P6 questions/meditations bother you, scroll past.


      ( SCNR ;-p )

      > Like, just one example might be, have you lost a job because of it?

      I don't like if abuse is excused with someones own's traumatic events.

      Like growing up in a war zone doesn't excuse beating his own kids.

      It might explain it, but can't excuse it!

      And Perl 6 is not the only field where this particular monk is showing crass explosive behavior.

      The biggest asset of PM is it's tolerance and discussion culture.

      Giving bullies even slight room to agitate to change the local policy is damaging PM and driving members away.

      Tolerance must end where it allows intolerance.

      my 2cents.

      Cheers Rolf
      (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
      Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

        Point taken; but let's try to refrain from slipping into ad hominem, ok? Thanks.

Re^12: Perl 6 to be renamed?
by jdporter (Canon) on Aug 28, 2019 at 19:01 UTC
    I won't let illogic from figures in authority stand unchallenged.

    All the arguing that needs to be done has been done, and plenty more besides. At some point (and that point is long past, in this case) sane people must let the arguments rest, and move on. Thanks.

      Canít you read? This is a moral imperative! PerlMonks needs a new section immediately to continue to flog address this! The Pillory.

        I upvoted your post because it's funny and because I know or I believe anyway that you have your own moral imperatives on which you act++ (which is what made it funny).

        The way forward always starts with a minimal test.

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