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Re^14: Curious about Perl's strengths in 2018

by dave_the_m (Monsignor)
on Apr 23, 2018 at 21:55 UTC ( #1213457=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^13: Curious about Perl's strengths in 2018
in thread Curious about Perl's strengths in 2018

These examples sound like XS code exploiting undocumented or internal features, without being widely used.
I think that this really demonstrates that you have a rather idealistic view of perl core development. In reality, lots of things we change break CPAN modules, and people shout at us. And even if the module was being naughty, we're often told in no uncertain terms that because that module is a dependency for lots of other CPAN distributions we need to fix the module or roll back the perl change.

For example, if you install Moose, you pull in the following XS dependencies, some of which quite blatantly violate the XS API, or skirt its edges:

Package::Stash::XS Params::Util Class::Load::XS Sub::Identify Sub::Name Variable::Magic Devel::Caller Devel::LexAlias PadWalker
and it might be worth checking if cperl's implementation of signatures broke any official XS API
cperl's implementation is based on perl's implementation, plus my OP_SIGNATURE optimisation work, which I felt wasn't yet in a good enough state to merge into blead, but Reini decided it was ok for cperl. Other than that, the main differences are that cperl eliminates @_, and conflates signatures and prototypes.

Did it break the XS API? That depends on your point of view. For example, It added a new op (as did the perl implementation), and part of the XS API allows you to hook into the peephole optimiser. If an XS module which does additional peephole optimisation crashes because it doesn't recognise the new OP type, is that our fault or theirs? But people don't care whose fault it is if you can no longer install Moose, say - they just want sometime to fix the problem.

Dave.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^15: Curious about Perl's strengths in 2018
by LanX (Archbishop) on Apr 25, 2018 at 12:36 UTC
    Many of these XS modules build on PadWalker or offer a pure Perl fall back or reflect inspection which should be supported by a stable API.

    But I don't wanna discuss Moose, there are good reasons why I prefer Moo. (Ironically I never published my Macro module on cpan because I couldn't get rid of PadWalker dependency)

    You and Reini are obsessed of speed, that's why you try to eliminate @_.

    But Ruby convinced people as a "cleaner Perl" while being half as fast.

    Mind you that computers became 1000 times faster in 15 years* and try to calculate the positive effect of "slow" signatures introduced in the early 2000s.

    Did anyone yell at you because the experimental signature implementation breaks anything? It's just syntactic sugar injecting pure Perl code in the body. (Well except of me? ;-) I told my clients not to use it, because if the API for named args is missing, the risk of another "smart-match" disaster is too big.

    We are becoming a community of grandpa's who want no change and are driving away fresh blood which can't find confidence in a language which not only lacks signatures, but can't evolve anymore and seems to be locked in a dead end of evolution.

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
    Wikisyntax for the Monastery

    *) More's law

      Did anyone yell at you because the experimental signature implementation breaks anything?
      Yes they did as a matter of fact. (Off the top of my head, lvalue subs got broken).

      It's just syntactic sugar injecting pure Perl code in the body
      No it isn't. Both perl (5.26.0 onwards) and cperl added specific new ops internally to support signatures.

      Anyway, I'm not arguing with you any more. I've explained at great length to you various technical and logistical reasons why perl hasn't been getting lots of new features, and you just keep repeating your original complaints.

      Bye!

      Dave.

        > No it isn't.

        OK, ... B::Deparse shows injected code according to Brian. I checked it once and found it too.

        > and you just keep repeating your original complaints.

        I could say the same thing. I keep telling that we need a strategy and syntactic sugar and you keep repeating arguments (most probably from other discussions) around new OP-Codes.

        > Bye!

        I didn't mean to make you angry.

        Thanks for the conversation, I learned a lot! :)

        And thanks for your hard work!

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language and ☆☆☆☆ :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery

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