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merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected

by princepawn (Parson)
on Dec 26, 2001 at 09:30 UTC ( #134375=perlmeditation: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

Looking at merlyn's responses to my criticism, I have to say what you say makes sense to me... in fact it does seem to be part of your nature to want to save people for their own good even when they don't want it.... just look at the number of times you have spent your world-class skills begging people to not write another templating system here. Just look at the number of times that you have spent creating links to your well-written industrial-strength articles (that the asshole censor cum dictator am I paying vroom to continue his dictatorship? vroom has removed) so that people can do things in a way based on the work of a true genius, yourself.

Frustrating, isn't it?

It is scary how poorly run some of these major companies are. I can just see merlyn sweating bullets thinking about what might happen to the price of hardware if someone got in and destroyed some of their data.

As I have said before with complete sincerity, you are one of the greatest altruists in the Perl community and no doubt what you were doing there was some great work.

I will just take what happened to you as a lesson to me. From now on, whenever I see wrong, I will have to simply stay in-line. Everything is not meant to be done right or with justice. I used to worry about senseless violence.... "if there is a good God, why are innocent people killed everyday"... then I realized "why am I so worried about people killing people when tornadoes do it to humans all the time".

We humans live for cooperation and equality. I was floored when reading Ariel and Durant's "Lessons of History", which makes it plainly clear that nature unabashedly thrives on competition and discrimination. As sad as it may have been for Intel, and as painful as it must have been for you to scream at the top of your lungs at them, at some point for your own personal health and safety, you just have to play the pacifist role to some degree or another and dissociate yourself from your sense of duty.

In other words, I wrote a post here which was basically about why I left Oracle. You would think that a Perl-only group at the #2 software company in the world would have 5 or 6 Damian Conways 5 or 6 more Randal Schwartz and a couple of Larry Walls to round out the bunch. Not so, I was floored by how completely out of the know these people were. They were a bunch of non-thinking rule-obeying robots being overworked by a couple of demonic, controlling egomaniac manager types who probably never heard of the term "let's discuss the pros and cons of your solution versus mine." They would bring in people from overseas and in fact now have a new India Development division which will save money but will in fact ensure the continued trend of non-thinking subservience. They were using hand-coded poorly conceived versions of App::Config. They had their own crufty memory-eating, buggy HTML::Template. They had an impotent featureless Test that had serious useability problems. I was the most talented Perl developer I met in person in and out of my group, hands down, no contest. And without question, I think that is a shame. In fact, the reason that I posted The Top Perl Shops was so that in my next job I could be saying "yes, I am working under so-and-so and I am happy with his decision because he is 4 or 5 times better at me than Perl". I want to work for a merlyn or a japhy or even though we fight a lot, tilly is 100 times better at me both at Perl and Philosophy of Programming and I would work for him to and deal with his abusive personality because he is clearly well-versed. And I can here tilly's reply: "you have demonstrated that you are not worthy of working with me" and that is the difference between tilly and merlyn. merlyn believes that people can improve and become better with time, regardless of past infractions, while tilly is basically sentences you to a life of losership once you offend him.

Concluding, I find jynx's statement

The monastery is supposed to be a place for monks to come together and work in peace and harmony
to be very dangerous. You are basically saying let us come to this place and drop our ability to think critically and only accept what is around us. There is a saying "friends tell you what you want to know. enemies tell you what you need to know." In other words, in a real monestary Such as this one I just spent 31 days of intensive Buddhist medititation at, you come to work on your personal issues and get many lifetimes of self-destructive originally voluntary, now automatic habits corrected via intense personal work. It is only in a cult that people work in harmony because they are given a set of rules and they all mindlessly abide by them. Resolution conflict is an important skill and not showing a person their faults is bad for that person and unhealthy for a group as a whole. But it may take a couple of testicle fondlings in "peace and harmony" of a catholic brothel or a few large-scale larcenies in the "peace and harmony" of choose-your-cult-here before you get the idea that wrong is wrong and needs to be pointed out even if everyone there has glazed eyes and a glowing (but falsely gained) sense of happiness. But why am I saying this? Shouldn't I just see that jynx cannot listen to reason? Shouldn't I give up on him? he is narrow-minded. one-viewed. short-sighted. No amount of reason will change him. But then again, why should Ido to him what tilly does to me. I have to keep the merlyn spirit. Keep chugging away at the dense. Keep trying to save them

And now that merlyn answered by criticisms rationally, I think he does have a case and I feel sorry for him. But had I held my tongue and not lashed out at him, we would not have come to this understanding. Perhaps I might learn a better way to present my arguments or perhaps I might like to post as a cowardly Anonymous Monk, but the fight for truth must continue.

But the final issue we need to deal with is your presentation. You presented an outside link to a case that we are all vaguely familiar with instead of a detailed document which would answer questions such as the ones I posted. merlyn is a smart person who has done all his homework. he knows the Perl manpages and more. But in being so knowledgeable, you are in huge minority at this monestary. Only 1 percent of the people here can see things at your level of clarity. The other 99 percent will not understand you. Thus, when you get downvoted, it mainly means that a bunch of less-brilliant people cannot relate to a brilliant one... Einstein was another person who had a lot of problems integrating into society. so you have a choice, continue with "one sentence of mine, and 4 relevant URLS is worth your time to go figure things out" or you can be like Ovid and explain everything from the ground up. As long as you maintain the latter attitude, you will get downvoted by people who simply dont have the time or background to fathom that approach. And people who take the time to reformulate everything from the ground up (and Ovid seemsto be the best at this), will receive the accolades from the masses that they deserve.

all the best merlyn

  • Comment on merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected
by Fastolfe (Vicar) on Dec 26, 2001 at 14:30 UTC

    I have no interest in passing judgement on anything merlyn may have done. I do have issues with you bringing these completely non-Perl and rather confrontational posts to this site. That's why I downvoted them. I have no problem with critical thinkers, but I do have a problem with people that just blow up with a reaction-provoking post about some off-topic problem they have and then get pissy with the world when they do, in fact, react to it. Seriously, what did you expect?

Re: merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected
by BMaximus (Chaplain) on Dec 26, 2001 at 19:21 UTC
    Only 1 percent of the people here can see things at your level of clarity. The other 99 percent will not understand you.

    I disagree with most of this statement. What information do you have that only 1% of the PM population can understand things at Merlyn's level of clarity? Did you take a poll? You cite it as if it were fact when it should be labeled more as an opinion. I don't think that Merlyn was downvoted because of a person's inability to understand what he was saying but more so to the perceived abrasive tone of his writing (short and to the point can seem like you're calling a person stupid). I have seen much improvement in Merlyn's writing (as far as his short and to the point posts, we all know he can write a great article) since I joined PM. Merlyn has gained my respect and admiration as a person that I can learn from.

    I'm a little disconcerted with your wording in the final paragraph. I'm really bothered by it. It almost seems like a putdown to those whom you think can't understand. I'm wondering what that would look like to an individual who is just starting out in Perl.

    BMaximus
Re (tilly) 1: merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected
by tilly (Archbishop) on Jan 04, 2002 at 04:14 UTC
    I am curious why you accuse me of having an abusive personality. I occasionally express things in a very strong fashion, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. But I have a general belief that people really can improve. Indeed I have expressed exactly that belief about you in past discussion. By contrast merlyn every so often explains that he thinks some people simply should not be programmers, they don't have what it takes.

    So our respective positions as I see it are diametrically opposed from what your position appears to be, and so I am wondering how you came to your current opinion.

      A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.
Re: merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected
by vladb (Vicar) on Dec 27, 2001 at 00:35 UTC
    Let me disagree with your dissent on certain points and the way you interpret behavior of certain individuals (aka monks).

    My understanding is that it's perfectly legitimate for a well known and credited monk (*hint* *hint* merlyn), who's notably contributed significantly to the rest of the Perl community through his selfless contributions, to update the rest on matters that _eventually_ would affect many of us who've come to like and appreciate Perl and the 'hacker' spirit (i assume 'hacker' is distinctly different from 'cracker'). Personally, I appreciated merlyn's effort in doing so as that allowed me for a chance to learn certain "do" and "do-nots" when it comes to the corporate world etc. And I definitely have a hard time understanding reasoning of certain monks who attempt to somehow diminish the importance of the post failing to give proper credit where it's due. Moreover, they (i would refrain from mentioning specific monk ids) assert (falesly as I think) that merlyn's level of 'being famous' doesn't lent him any right to do such posts that seem to concern his 'private' matters. Well, afterall, it is due to his involvement in the Perl community that certain things that occur in his live may not be ignored by the rest. I think that these court proceedings are a prime example of a few things that should be a legitimate concern for the rest. Besides, this is also a good case in point (for those like me at the least who learned something :). And I certainly don't think it's somehow 'discriminatory' against 'unfamous monks' to upvote merlyn's node on the grounds that the former wouldn't have such favor. In fact, I _do_ agree that were it an 'unfamous monk' that made the post, I'd probably consider it somewhat irrelavent ;-) On the other hand, however, if the post dealt with some 'universal'/political issues that are bound to raise some serious questions (such as jailing of a poor hacker 'Joe', for example), I would have most likely accepted it.

    Speaking of vroom and his alleged 'dictatorship', I would bluntly disagree and even dissaprove of similar comments that were clearly made without merit. He's worked hard to bring this site up (maybe with the help of a few others, maybe not..) and with all due respect I say he's got certain rights over it. Now, whether he excercises them properly or not is up to him. From where I stand, however, I didn't notice anything wrong with vroom. But, _even_ if anything _did_ occur, I'd be willing to live with it or somehow figure a way to settle any disputs privately (without having to announce it to the rest of the community). Moreover, I didn't see any legitimate facts/evidence to your allegations against vroom. Or is it something you somehow foresee to happen?

    "There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels." -- Confession of Faith
Re: merlyn is fighting a fight of justice. I stand apologetic, informed and corrected
by SparkeyG (Curate) on Dec 26, 2001 at 18:54 UTC
    Having read this and the previous thread. I want to compliment princepawn on writing this humbling node. It's not always hard to admit your wrong, but I feel you do it well.

    --SparkeyG
    Father of One

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