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RE: RE:(5) Reputation Viewing Option?

by KM (Priest)
on Aug 31, 2000 at 00:26 UTC ( #30397=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to RE:(5) Reputation Viewing Option?
in thread Reputation Viewing Option?

Besides, what happens when you have two nodes, -10 and -15? Sorting doesn't tell you the useful parts

I still wonder why posts with that type of rep don't simply get auto-deleted, since they are likely useless. But, if those two posts are part of 7, the sort would put them on the bottom.

Basically reputation is a means of communicating to the user, and it is hidden. There is an entire structure dedicated towards maintaining that repuation, but it's primary informative usage has been cut off.

Agreed. Yet knowing the rep could be harmful. Although, I don't think knowing the actual rep number is so useful. I see plently of posts with a rep of 2 which are great, and some at 20 which I don't think are any better. So, what is there to do? I would suggest adding the sort feature to each page (it is already in the User Settings), deleting posts of -10 (or less) automatically, and maybe even some pretty little icons representing a 'range' of rep next to the posts title. For example, 0-2 have nothing, 3-9 have a star, 10-19 have two stars, 20-29 have three, etc... all -- nodes would have a big unhappy face next to them. Or a image of Mr. Yuk.

Cheers,
KM

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RE:(7) Reputation Viewing Option?
by swiftone (Curate) on Aug 31, 2000 at 00:37 UTC
    I still wonder why posts with that type of rep don't simply get auto-deleted, since they are likely useless. But, if those two posts are part of 7, the sort would put them on the bottom.

    I suspected when I typed that that my point would be missed. Knowing that two posts fall in a certain order does not tell you everything you want to know. Replace the above negative numbers with -2 and -5, or whatever low-but-not-too-low nubmers you find adequate. And lets just say that they aren't part of 5, or 7, or 20, or any other large number that makes them irrelevant.

    Yet knowing the rep could be harmful.
    How? I'll grant you the point of the "snowball" effect, but if you use the suggested method and sacrifice your vote to see rep, it doesn't happen. (The above twisted scenarios with someone with two accounts with voting privileges, one of which is used primarily to snowball, sounds too twisted to really worry about. As someone said, anyone with two voting accounts doesn't need to go through such hoops to try to skew the system)

    Although, I don't think knowing the actual rep number is so useful.
    True, a 7 and a 10 don't have much distinction. But now I know that, while a 20 sorted above a 1 doesn't tell me that.

    I would suggest adding the sort feature to each page (it is already in the User Settings), deleting posts of -10 (or less) automatically, and maybe even some pretty little icons representing a 'range' of rep next to the posts title. For example, 0-2 have nothing, 3-9 have a star, 10-19 have two stars, 20-29 have three, etc... all -- nodes would have a big unhappy face next to them. Or a image of Mr. Yuk.

    So we could jump through all these hoops, including making those star levels relative to account for the vote inflation as PM becomes more popular...or we could just give the "not vote" option, and trust that 70% of our users continue to be reasonable people. I know which makes sense to me.

      lets just say that they aren't part of 5, or 7, or 20, or any other large number that makes them irrelevant.

      I see what you are saying, but Mr. Yuk is worth a thousand words! Or, all negative number posts have their negative number shown. I don't think showing the actual number for positive votes is needed. "Oh, this one must be useless since it only has a rep of 1", "This one with 15 votes must be correct", "Hmmm.. one 10 and five 3's. The 10 has to be better" are things I believe people would think, which would not be conducive to them learning. How?

      Because I believe the actual reps are influenced by author (we know of strange --'s for no good reason. I wouldn't be surprised if some are ++'d because of the author). And, more importantly, when a new user comes and sees a +15, s/he may ignore the +2's which could be answers of better caliber. Posts are judged on their own, not in relation to other posts in the thread, so later posts may not get the attention that those posted within an hour get, but be just as valuable. Simply knowing that people think it is a good, useful node should be enough and not form any bias.

      So we could jump through all these hoops, including making those star levels relative to account for the vote inflation as PM becomes more popular

      What hoops? Putting a little icon next to a post title? Seems like it is simply a nice visual way to help see possibly valuable posts, without seeing the actual rep. Why would we want a 'not vote' option? I would never use it, it would be a waste of a vote (especially for those in lower levels). My suggested solutions are only trying to help new users to Perl, and this site. Sorting and visual cues can really help someone find what they are looking for with more ease. Giving Yet Another Voting Option will not do this.

      Cheers,
      KM

        I see what you are saying, but Mr. Yuk is worth a thousand words! Or, all negative number posts have their negative number shown. I don't think showing the actual number for positive votes is needed. "Oh, this one must be useless since it only has a rep of 1", "This one with 15 votes must be correct", "Hmmm.. one 10 and five 3's. The 10 has to be better" are things I believe people would think, which would not be conducive to them learning. How?

        Yup, people will think different things. Let them. Frankly, _I'd_ think a 10 is better than a 2, unless the 2 was too new to have gotten votes.

        And, more importantly, when a new user comes and sees a +15, s/he may ignore the +2's which could be answers of better caliber.

        If they are answers of better caliber, the rest of us Monks haven't done our job. What is the voting system for, after all?

        What hoops? Putting a little icon next to a post title?

        Coming up with a sliding scale for the icons that adjusts for vote inflation over time (a post made now will tend to have a larger absolute value than a post in March). Basically you're going to a lot of effort to communicate the rep without communicating it. Simplicity.

        Why would we want a 'not vote' option? I would never use it, it would be a waste of a vote (especially for those in lower levels). Because it allows you to see the rep, but not allow the rep to influence your voting. Personally I'd use it a lot. There was a question about the XML modules a few days ago, with some answers saying somewhat contradictory things. I didn't vote, because I couldn't say which was right, but it would have been interesting/helpful to future learning if I had known which vote was ranked higher by my fellow Monks. Eventually I intend to play with the XML modules, and having a better idea of what is recommended gets me started.

        As for waste of a vote, that's arguable. Perhaps it doesn't count against your vote totals. But this can be argued out if/when the system is adopted.

        The main problem with your "visual cue" is that it works against what you (and others) so vigorously argued: That allowing the voter to know the rep would influence the vote (Personally I disagree, but I've conceded the point because of the large number of Monks saying so).

        So if we say that

        1. We shouldn't allow the rep to be known before a vote is cast
        2. There are times when you (or at least me, and presumably others) would like to know the rep, but don't have the knowledge to vote ++ or --
        A logical conclusion is that you CAN learn the rep, but shouldn't be able to vote.
        I think the problem with what your proposing is that it lets people know what other people think about a node before they vote on it. I think the general concensus has been that this is a bad thing because it might sway votes one way or another. So i think you would have to have an extra voting option one way or the other. Currently, after you vote on a node it shows the number. I think what has been suggested is something where a node would act as if you had voted for it, except the reputation wouldn't change one way or another. Perhaps visual cues would be better than the number, but I don't think we should get them before we have voted on the node, or decided that we're not going to vote on it...

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