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in reply to Re: Is Java really better than Perl???
in thread Is Java really better than Perl???
If you have four developers who are handy with Perl, Java, C++ and SQL, surely they can achieve vastly more than four purely Java developers.
Not sure what you mean here.
Sorry , I meant each of them was quite competent in each langauge/domain. And whilst finding developers good in multiple languages is hard, my position stands that that these developers will be be better at development (as opposed to using neat features of one language) than a developer who knows one language.
You don't understand the argument. It's not an argument to pick Java over Perl. It's an argument to not keep Perl.
but they support that argument with the justification that Java can do anything Perl can - my position is that that is not a sufficient reason in itself to drop Perl
Shouting doesn't help.
I wasn't shouting, I was adding emphasis.
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#!/usr/bin/perl
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Re: Is Java really better than Perl???
by Abigail-II (Bishop) on Apr 22, 2004 at 07:38 UTC
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Sorry , I meant each of them was quite competent in each langauge/domain. And whilst finding developers good in multiple languages is hard, my position stands that that these developers will be be better at development (as opposed to using neat features of one language) than a developer who knows one language.
Oh, sure, and if you get Linus Torvalds or Damian Conway as programmers, they are likely to be better at developming programs than Joe R. Programmer. Still, even if you have the four best programmers in the world, it isn't at all clear that it isn't better if they used one language between them instead of four.
but they support that argument with the justification that Java can do anything Perl can - my position is that that is not a sufficient reason in itself to drop Perl
It wasn't presented as a sufficient reason to drop Perl. It was one of the arguments of not keeping Perl. It basically nullifies a possible counter argument, that you can do things with Perl that you can't do with Java.
Abigail
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Oh, sure, and if you get Linus Torvalds or Damian Conway as programmers...
Well they are extreme examples, but lets see if I can illustrate my point with them anyway.
If one had Damian AND Linus working together, my position is that their disparate skills would result in a better development than a team of just clones of one of them. I am certain there is much they both could learn from one another. You state that it isn't clear that one language wouldn't be better or worse than several. My experience tells me that it is clear. Furthermore, my experience tells me that products developed/built with tools that do their particular job very well are better than ones where a single tool tries to be made to do "too much". Just look at a typical (*nix) developers day - shell, Make, ant, java, perl, grep, CVS, SQL, XML - many specific tools/solutions/applications that result in a powerful synergy.
It was one of the arguments of not keeping Perl. I still stand by my assertion this is a weak argument - to me it is patently obvious that Perl is infinitely better at many things than Java, so why one would be so bloody-minded as to force everyone to do those things in a much more difficult way, and justify it by saying having one language is a better use of resource, seems completely bizarre. Why anyone would think that taking 10 hours to write something in Java, that could be done in 3 in Perl, is a good use of resources is beyond me.
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#!/usr/bin/perl
use warnings;use strict;use brain;
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If one had Damian AND Linus working together, my position is that their disparate skills would result in a better development than a team of just clones of one of them. I am certain there is much they both could learn from one another.
Oh, sure. Linus might learn from Damian and Damian might learn from Linus. But if I'm paying them high salaries to write code, than they should write code, and not have to waste expensive time in learning another language. I might be better off sacking Linus and hiring Jarkko or Sarathy.
But almost all companies don't have that luxery. They have to deal with programmers that know one, or a few related, languages well. Given the general attitude of Perl programmers towards Java, and the general attitude of non-Perl programmers towards Perl, programmers that know both languages well, and want to program in both languages, are much harder to find than programmers able and willing to program in one language. From a hiring aspect, focussing on one language is a win for a company.
Let me phrase it this way. If you buy groceries, how many supermarkets do you visit? How much should your savings be for you to consider visiting two supermarkets, getting products from both supermarkets?
Just look at a typical (*nix) developers day - shell, Make, ant, java, perl, grep, CVS, SQL, XML - many specific tools/solutions/applications that result in a powerful synergy.
That's not a sensible comparison. Make, ant, grep, CVS, SQL, XML are all special purpose tools. It will be pretty hard to use grep for tasks that are commonly done by make or ant. XML isn't a viable replacement for CVS. Perl and Java on the other hand are general purpose languages.
I still stand by my assertion this is a weak argument - to me it is patently obvious that Perl is infinitely better at many things than Java, so why one would be so bloody-minded as to force everyone to do those things in a much more difficult way, and justify it by saying having one language is a better use of resource, seems completely bizarre. Why anyone would think that taking 10 hours to write something in Java, that could be done in 3 in Perl, is a good use of resources is beyond me.
Heh, you don't have to convince me that Perl is a better choice than Java, given the right programmers. However, a preference of Perl over Java doesn't imply supporting both is better for the company than focussing on just one. Say, the "thing" that takes 10 hours to write in Java and 3 in Perl is part of the general toolkit. If you have part of your programs in Java, and part of your programs in Perl, you need 13 hours of writing it, because it needs to be written in both Perl and Java (and that's not counting any overhead in making sure both the Java and the Perl solution work identically - and that future versions are kept in sync).
Abigail
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