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It's a very old, very well-documented story and I'd be surprised if you weren't aware of it.

Well, over the past years I've stayed out of the whole "Perl 5 vs. Perl 6" thing, but what I have seen is that it appears to be a quite an emotional issue for some people, which I don't really understand, partially of course because I've stayed out of it. I've only recently paid a bit closer attention because it seems to me like there might be real changes happening soon. But I also don't plan on rehashing or starting another debate.

I'm just happy that Perl 5 and Perl 6 / Raku are IMHO both great languages, and I don't have a very strong opinion on the naming issue - if it were to stay "Perl 6", that's ok with me, although I also see the advantages of a rename to "Raku". In the end, they're just programming languages, and despite Perl being my favorite for many years, people are free to use whatever language they like. TIMTOWTDI.

People who say Raku is Perl do not make their living as Perl programmers.

I do have to say that statement, worded so generally, is most likely not true. So it seems more like rhetoric to me, which is something I don't agree with, and to me it also doesn't jive with the next sentence, in particular "the moral imperative to challenge lies".

Also, you didn't really answer the actual question I was asking, but it is admittedly somewhat of a personal question, so that's fine of course.

Anyway, the main point I wanted to make is the following - it's something that I can't tell whether you've taken into consideration. First, I hope you'll agree that it's fair to say that you've used some strong language in your advocacy, sometimes going into personal insults.

Many of the people working on or using Perl 6 either used to be or still are active Perl 5 users and devs as well. Some people (like myself) really like Perl 6, but still use Perl 5 in their day-to-day tasks. And many of the people working more or less full-time on Perl 6 came from Perl 5. Just to name two symbolic examples, Larry Wall's Perl 6 viv was written in Perl 5, and Rakudo's (among others) is written in Perl 5.

In other words, these "Perl 6 people" are also "Perl 5 people". They are clearly members of the Perl community, and there's more than just a couple. It follows, then, that personal attacks on Perl 6 and the people working on or with it are also attacks on members of the Perl community. In addition, several of your posts on this topic sounded to me like they have an undertone of "you're not welcome here". <update> I don't mean to come across as trying to defend for other people, some of whom might feel they don't need someone else to defend them. So let me speak for myself: At the very least, it makes me uncomfortable to watch members of the Perl community attack each other in this way, and I imagine I'm not the only one. </update>

If you want to get a message across, I would suggest that instead of rhetoric, words like "interlopers", "cuckoos", or even harsher insults, which I don't see the necessity for in the first place, constructive criticism and reasoned arguments would get you much further (setting aside for now the question of why one might want to spend so much energy on this in the first place).

You linked to Ovid's blog post, so let me quote that:

... you can try to change their mind, but be aware that when someone strongly disagrees with you, you usually want to start discussion from the points you can agree on and then slowly move to the points on which you disagree. However, that's not been the story of Perl 5/6. People disagree and immediately jump to disagreements rather than trying to find common ground.

... Now, despite just having said all that, I want to invite you to a Perl conference, especially if you haven't been to one yet. For example, I plan on being in Amsterdam next August. One of the things I've enjoyed is that it really feels open to everyone, and yes, even the vocal critics of one thing or another ;-) It's been great to get to know more fellow Perl people, and for me it's quickly turned into one of the highlights of the year.

In reply to Re^14: Perl 6 to be renamed? by haukex
in thread Perl 6 to be renamed? by bangor

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