Re^3: No, "We" Don't Have to Do Anything

[Anonymous Monk]

What a load of crap. Nobody's forcing you to listen to the hype in the first place.

Sure, in the sense that no one's "forcing" me to look at billboards while walking downtown. But I still see them, and it's not really optional. The only question is how much attention I'll pay them, and how hard I'll work to mentally screen them out. The same applies to the Perl 6 hype that so often materializes in Perl 5 discussions. It's about as easy to ignore as a Jehova's Witness. :-(

And how are we supposed to recruit volunteers to work on the project without talking about our dreams, realistic or not?

Volunteers aren't the first step. Deciding what you're going to build is the first step. Making sure you can build it is second. Getting a big group of people together to do the work happens last, once you know what the work is. Isn't that just basic engineering?

How can we know whether they're realistic until we try?

Careful engineering analysis? What problem are you trying to solve with the tool you intend to build? Does your design actually solve that problem? Can your design be implemented with the resources available? What clear and tangible metric will you use to evaluate the success of the project?

How can you label our dreams as "empty promises" when so many of us are still pouring our hearts and souls into implementing whatever part of it is realistic,

Effort is a fine thing. Directed effort with a firm goal in mind is better. Results that match what has been promised are best.

and when many of us have been ever so careful to remind people again and again that it'll be done when it's done? Unfortunately, even more people have not.

How can you claim you don't care when you put so much effort into griping?

Well, I do care, a little. Perl 6 affects my job, my future, my career by sheer virtue of existing as a project in the Perl 5 sphere. It affects where people put effort with regards to Perl development, and what managers expect. To some extent, thanks to ugly network effects, I have to care, whether I want to or not.

For the most part, though, I don't. Yes, I see things I like in Perl 6. I also see things I hate. I don't know whether any or all of those proposed features will actually get implemented, and so I don't know if I should support or condemn the language; I'd just as soon ignore it, reserve judgement, and see what gets built in the end. That's what I try, but it hasn't been working; I still get people telling me: "that'll be fixed in Perl 6"; "try Perl 6: there's Pugs out already", "Perl 6 is almost done".

I'm just tired of all the hype (as I pointed out in another post). And when you have to defend a project based on "dreams", rather than solid engineering practices, can you really wonder that it's developed so slowly and so poorly? Emotions, dreams, and feelings don't build results; objective analysis, careful design, and rigourous implementation do.

[TimToady]

Please let's leave off parodying each other's position. Neither the dream nor the engineering can be successful without the other. And given our resources and the scale of the dream, we really have no choice but to take an evolutionary approach to the design, with lots of feedback from the implementors guiding the refinements and simplifications. As long as the process is convergent we'll eventually end up with something useful, provided the dream is sufficiently powerful to keep some of us irrationally committed to the project. Believe me, if we weren't irrationally committed, we'd all have quit long ago, because there's just about as much sniping about Perl 6 as there is hype, and we're just about as tired of the sniping as you are of the hype.

[spiritway]

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you, that volunteers aren't the first step. You're quite correct that deciding what you're going to build is vitally important, among the first things to figure out. But - who's going to decide? Volunteers. People who get together to create a fine product, mostly on their own time. Everyone is invited to participate, and as [id://chromatic] explained, even novices such as I can help out by learning more and asking questions - maybe suggesting features, or identifying unclear syntax, whatever. No one has tried to coerce me into using Perl 6, reading about it, or contributing.

I think it's exciting to find a bunch of people who are doing something - something very difficult - just for the satisfaction of doing a job well done.

I've got no idea wheter Perl 6 will ever be finished and released. I keep faith that it will. Now that I know I might be able to chip in and help (and I don't have to know how to write compilers or parsers), I'll go ahead and add my two cents' worth. Why not? The work pays off as I do it. I don't have to wait until the official release.

I think [id://chromatic]'s point was well stated: if you don't want to help out, great, but please quit whining about Perl 6 being slow, or having or not having certain features, etc.

Your comment that "Emotions, dreams, and feelings don't build results;..." is incorrect(IMNSHO). All the objective analysis, design, etc. aren't going to do squat unless people are motivated to do the hard work involved - and that takes dreaming, emotions, a feeling that this is worthwhile and meaningful. Without that, the project is dead in the water, and we might as well pick up our toys and go home. What you call 'hype' is often just people being excited about this project. That's what makes it go.