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Re: J2EE is too complicated - why not Perl?

by coreolyn (Parson)
on Dec 08, 2003 at 18:50 UTC ( #313182=note: print w/ replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to J2EE is too complicated - why not Perl?

As I'm an Enterprise Architect for a large financial corp, I wish I had enough time to vent on this one, but I have to get back to some production Java issues *cackle*

First off I have to answer chromatic's question because he's answered so many of my own and I can't believe I'm capable of providing him an answer of any sort:

What exactly is an "enterprise level requirement" and why would I have one?

According to J2EE 1.4 spec a Enterprise Information System Resource (closest I could come to the question) is defined as:

  • An entity that provides enterprise information system-specific functionality to its clients. Examples are: a record or set of records in a database system, a business object in an enterprise resource planning system, and a transaction program in a transaction processing system.
  • Just for clarification (according to Sun --Caution! Never stare at Sun directly!!) An Enterprise Information System is defined as:

  • The applications that comprise an enterprise’s existing system for handling company-wide information. These applications provide an information infrastructure for an enterprise. An enterprise information system offers a well-defined set of services to its clients. These services are exposed to clients as local or remote interfaces or both. Examples of enterprise information systems include: enterprise resource planning systems, mainframe transaction processing systems, and legacy database systems.
  • Now to the original question J2EE is too complicated - why not Perl? This is easy.. Perl is unmaintainable in a large enterprise. (5000+ employees.) Of course it appears Java is unmaintainable in a large enterprise too, however, millions are invested into it therefore, "It's gonna work dammit or your fired!".

    What's scaring the hell out of me is .NET. Just this week I saw two non-coders develop 2 fairly sophisticated apps that utilize web services in less than 7 days just by following the right-click on error method of programming. Intel platforms are cheap and apparently monkeys can create applications with it. Now we all know that as soon as MS upgrades they'll all break, but what will management think of it? Well guess who the monkies were...

    I love Perl up down and sideways but have a hell of a time working on anyone else's Perl code (monk level/CPAN level quality excluded). The truth is that I'm tickled pink whenever I run into someone in the organization that even knows what Perl is.

    There are issues like Perls speed and memory management (Can't get them to upgrade from 5.005), but these are not what keeps Perl from the enterprise. "It's the management stupid!"


    Comment on Re: J2EE is too complicated - why not Perl?
    Re: Re: J2EE is too complicated - why not Perl?
    by petesmiley (Friar) on Dec 08, 2003 at 22:16 UTC
      .NET =D HAHAHAHAHAHA....

      oh sorry....

      Ya know, these are the same people that decide that using the canned security in .NET and windoze is perfectly acceptable. But I guess some people have to learn the hard way. By the way, don't get the idea I've let this keep me from learning a little of it myself.

      As for Perl in the "enterprise" (I never saw that part of Star Trek), I still agree with chromatics question. As for the definition, why isn't it simple? His was.

      As for reading other peoples code and working in large groups, I would be willing to make a cheap bet. There is no project so big that you need so many programmers. I honestly believe many projects are over-engineered and the programmers under skilled.

      I have never had the opportunity to work in large groups. However, that has never kept me working on large projects. Here are the reasons that I think (I could be wrong ;) there are very few differences between languages when it comes to big problems.

      1. A programming language will not make coders write good code, no matter how strict the language is.
      2. A programming language will not make coders write documentation, no matter how easy it is. And for those of you with experience you know how easy it is in Perl.
      3. A programming language will not make coders communicate with each other any better.
      It will stay that way until they invent the mind reading programming language (which still leaves #3 in doubt), and by then it won't even matter because it will take only one person to write something.

      If you think about it, a language can only make these things worse by resisting the need of being intuitive. Skill, simplicity, documentation, and communication are all failing points of not only programming projects, but also businesses.

      smiles

        One thing missing in this discussion is that if I write a commercial application in Perl, how do I sell it without exposing the code?

        I was asked about it in my company when I wanted to write a tool. Even though we gave the tool to our customer, we did not sell it.

        May be there is a way and I do not know it. I thought compiling it to native code is not supported yet.

        Here is a cool idea:

        Why not write Sun's pet store project in Perl and bench mark it?

          I know this is an entirely different discussion, but...
          why would you need to hide the code?

          If I want to look at the guts of a java program (which isn't native to anything but a JVM) I can just decompile it.

          Just an opinion but, to me IP law is what protects code ownership, not hokey compilation schemes. If someone wants to steal your program, they're gonna steal your program.

          If the program is legitimately yours, then good customers will pay for it. I've seen some ginormous products, written in Perl, come in the door where I work, and it never kept the company from shelling out 6 or 7 digits for it. Granted, all of these products came with service contracts. But then again, I have this feeling high-end java based products come with service contracts as well.

          smiles

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